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Thread: We really need stats now.

  1. #1391
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    There is an awful lot of theoretical mumbojumbo in this thread - and a lot of assumption (such as what happens in HoN will definitely happen in DotA as if they were the same community or used the same algorithms). My suggestion is to try out stats for a few weeks then revert back to what we have now. Then, gosh this may sound stunning, do a poll to ask the DotA users which is better to have.

  2. #1392
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Individual (private) stats will harm the community as players will play for stats, denying that people won't is bullshit.
    Doesn't happen often that people play for stats.
    They already play for having a good in-game score since you get flamed and get called a feeder if you die a lot anyway. There is no way to prohibe that people flame stats as long as there is a chat in the game. (now I dare you to not even get the idea to disable the chat in order to improve the community)

    Private stats however are already available, and even IF they play for increasing them, they are doing a hell of a good job by winning games. The same way as in HoN.

    Seeing people that play for stats in an intollerant manner in HoN is as usual as having a dumbass denying you mid for not having as many wins as you do.
    It happens, but be honest to yourself, it's not even happening a quarter of your games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    You do not learn anything from the numbers of the stats you want. As they are empty. I keep finding it funny how you think you get better by watching your average KDR and ward count. And then think "huh guess I need to die less and kill more". Absolutely pathetic if that's your argument. If you would admit that it's just for your peen and as something to fall back on when things go bad I at least would have respect. What I mean by this is that you are playing absolutely crap but you can say to your teammates, who are probably mad, "look at my KDR it's 1.10".
    Although I don't support fighting between teammates it is better to argue with actual statistics to back you up than having empty arguements like "i have more wins than you".

    Anyway, that is not the point.
    Now let us see how the downside is of not having stats:

    - People will not know what their team is capable of. Since you have no idea what your teammates are like you have to rely on your luck, pick a carry like everyone else and hope that you get the best farm.
    - You will never know if you actually improved or if it just seems so.
    - It is not encouraging to play games only to gain cosmetics for most players (which are also only there to show off and encourage flaming, you want to disable them too?)
    - Over a longer period of time players that play the game a lot and want to become competitive players will lose the interest because there is no way for them to show how good they are.
    - If people will play the way they want and there is nothing to gain, games will and already turn out like "No Stats" games in HoN. An uncontrollable chaos, might be fun sometimes, not if you want to win.
    - You will never know if MM actually balances people after their skill level, or Valve only says it does. Stats help players finding errors in the system.
    - Without stats the game is less fun for "hardcore" players.
    - You can't earn money from hard-core players anymore.
    - Valve would ruin a money making oppertunity. You can only guess how much real statwhores pay in order to reset their stats just so they have an improvement of like 0.2 kd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Seriously if there's one not reading then it's you proponents. You really think you learn to die less and kill more by watching at those numbers? Do you realize then you aren't performing well? Isn't your intention EVERY fucking game to just die the least amounts of time? Same goes for gpm or whatever else the horrible stats HoN provides.
    Not at all. I have seen countless of people that have like 40% win but a kd of 3. Those are people who ruin the game and the reason why stats aren't in this game yet. But those people only make about 1% of the community. Why should the other 99% get punished by not having stats?
    I rather have a KD of 0.5 and like 60 - 70% win just to show that i am capable of winning the way I play than having a high KD which is meaningless.

    Also:
    If you introduce stats you would have like to have them as detailed as possible.
    That would mean:

    Not only showing average KD and all other stats for all heroes together,
    You would want to have detailed stats for every hero you ever played more than 5 - 10 games with.

    The more detailed the stats are, the more effective and fair they are.

    What many people that get harassed for having bad stats also have to do is just saying "ok, I'm not as good as you, but I am trying to improve"
    Sentences like that often cause more productive teamplay and maybe even new gaming friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    I can honestly tell that you guys won't get better when you rely on your stats to get better.
    Worked in HoN for me.
    When I came from dota to HoN i was a really bad player.
    Then I became sort of a KD whore, which didn't bring me much further since I still was bad and failed to get a lot of kills so I tried focusing on just winning and improving my other stats.
    In almost 3 years of HoN I have become a way better simply because I tried to "immitate" others that i thought were better than me. I compared the stats, I tried to improve the areas that lacked.

    Having something to determine someones skill level is better than nothing at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Do you learn anything from positioning and the feeling of when to initiate by looking at those numbers? Quit embarrassing yourselves and find some real arguments.
    A higher KD often tends that people know good positions.
    Good positioning is something I am still working a lot on, since it get's me killed and is the reason for my lower KD:A.

    Initiation is the same thing. A player that plays initiation heroes a lot and has a great KD:A knows how to initate.

    Again:
    More detailed stats give you a more detailed view on your own and others skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    And don't forget the bullshit about the community is already awful. So because it's awful we just have to make it even worse? Do you give a guy who has killed 6 people and is out of ammo another 6 bullets? Holy shit, it's like talking to the pope about giving up his believes.
    What I and others mean is probably that not having stats hasen't improved the community for shit and that it so far only has punished the people that want to have stats.

    A guy who has killed 6 people and is out of ammo will find another way to kill people with if he still has the intention. Often that way is slower and more painful.
    Compared to stats right now it is like:
    People that flamed others stats don't have stats to flame with now, so what do they do? They flame your most heroes played and how many games you won. Which is far more annoying and it happens to me as often as someone flamed someones stats in HoN.
    Is it dangerous for me? No it is not. I report them if they continue to harass me and intentionally let me die and so on. I don't get butthurt, go to the forum, and cry about removing the information about how many games I've won because it won't stop the bad guys.

    The only reason why people still behave a bit is because they are afraid to lose their access to the closed beta.


    The solution for all of dota2's problems is to censor everything.
    Censor the stats
    Censor the chat
    Censor the wins
    Censor the items

    That is how you prevent bad guys from flaming. But it would ruin the game for all the others. And Valve has already started with the first point.

    Also:
    having visible stats would prevent a lot of people from leaving games.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandal View Post
    There is an awful lot of theoretical mumbojumbo in this thread - and a lot of assumption (such as what happens in HoN will definitely happen in DotA as if they were the same community or used the same algorithms). My suggestion is to try out stats for a few weeks then revert back to what we have now. Then, gosh this may sound stunning, do a poll to ask the DotA users which is better to have.
    Since this game is in beta, why not try it out at least?
    I'm sure the major part of the community would love it.

    Considering that a lot of my friends left the game for example and went back to HoN since there aren't any stats and they don't really think it's a point to play dota2 just to gain nothing. At least those 11 guys will be back.
    It's not like HoN is better than Dota2, It's just pointless to play it atm.
    Last edited by ranaki; 07-08-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  3. #1393
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Since this game is in beta, why not try it out at least?
    I'm sure the major part of the community would love it.

    Considering that a lot of my friends left the game for example and went back to HoN since there aren't any stats and they don't really think it's a point to play dota2 just to gain nothing. At least those 11 guys will be back.
    It's not like HoN is better than Dota2, It's just pointless to play it atm.
    Did you read my post?

  4. #1394
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vandal View Post
    Did you read my post?
    i did even quote your post as an reply that said that it was a good idea lol

  5. #1395
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No we actually gave arguments for everything you said, you just fail to read them.

    I am willing to post it again (fifth time).

    Individual (private) stats will harm the community as players will play for stats, denying that people won't is bullshit.

    You do not learn anything from the numbers of the stats you want. As they are empty. I keep finding it funny how you think you get better by watching your average KDR and ward count. And then think "huh guess I need to die less and kill more". Absolutely pathetic if that's your argument. If you would admit that it's just for your peen and as something to fall back on when things go bad I at least would have respect. What I mean by this is that you are playing absolutely crap but you can say to your teammates, who are probably mad, "look at my KDR it's 1.10".

    Seriously if there's one not reading then it's you proponents. You really think you learn to die less and kill more by watching at those numbers? Do you realize then you aren't performing well? Isn't your intention EVERY fucking game to just die the least amounts of time? Same goes for gpm or whatever else the horrible stats HoN provides.

    I can honestly tell that you guys won't get better when you rely on your stats to get better.

    Do you learn anything from positioning and the feeling of when to initiate by looking at those numbers? Quit embarrassing yourselves and find some real arguments.

    And don't forget the bullshit about the community is already awful. So because it's awful we just have to make it even worse? Do you give a guy who has killed 6 people and is out of ammo another 6 bullets? Holy shit, it's like talking to the pope about giving up his believes.
    Real arguments? So the stuff you are making up and claiming to be THE truth, is the only valid argument?

    You need to understand, that perhaps you are wrong and therefore accept that people have a different opinion. Also you would probably want to avoid offending people by telling them to "stop embarrassing" them self. That kind of provocation wont get you anywhere.

  6. #1396
    Very, very well written post Ranaki. You should really copy that and send it as an email to the developers hehe.

    I am in the same boat as you, alot of my friends have gone back to HoN because of the stats. I actually like Dota 2 more than HoN but, if stats wont be added to the game I am not sure I will keep playing it. Optimizing and tweaking your current stats is what makes me wanna keep playing and getting better.

  7. #1397
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    i did even quote your post as an reply that said that it was a good idea lol
    Oh, I see. Yeah, there is no reason not to try it out.

  8. #1398
    Basic Member Irrelevante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Give me samples of like 5 different people in the high / mid / low tier. Not an average, this will only be so I have an glimpse over what an average kind of looks like. Be kind and try to find people that almost only solo queue

    I want APM, GPM, Most Heroes played, Win%, Amount of games Played and a KD:A (kill death assist ratio) from people with at least 100 games
    Uhm, why not look those up yourself? I'm already putting myself through quite a chore by gathering and calculating all the data we need for the test. Also, APM is not a trackable stat at the moment. I can't say for sure that the people I've randomly selected aren't solo queuing. Again, we're trying to recreate a situation of you, as a player, assesing your allies' skill level in the go, and finding out if said player is a regular solo queuer is not something you can easily find.

  9. #1399
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelevante View Post
    Uhm, why not look those up yourself? I'm already putting myself through quite a chore by gathering and calculating all the data we need for the test. Also, APM is not a trackable stat at the moment. I can't say for sure that the people I've randomly selected aren't solo queuing. Again, we're trying to recreate a situation of you, as a player, assesing your allies' skill level in the go, and finding out if said player is a regular solo queuer is not something you can easily find.
    how am I or you supposed to know what rating they are on?
    Is there any way to check if they have a high or low mmr?

    Keep in mind that the MMR is the most important stat as well.
    Without MMR, I can only tell you whenever someone is a good or bad player, which is just an assumption.
    What site / tool do you use to get access to seeing whenever someone has a high MMR or not?

  10. #1400
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    U 2 dudes are.priceless

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