Page 141 of 141 FirstFirst ... 41 91 131 139 140 141
Results 1,401 to 1,409 of 1409

Thread: We really need stats now.

  1. #1401
    Basic Member Irrelevante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    3,061
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    how am I or you supposed to know what rating they are on?
    Is there any way to check if they have a high or low mmr?

    Keep in mind that the MMR is the most important stat as well.
    Without MMR, I can only tell you whenever someone is a good or bad player, which is just an assumption.
    What site / tool do you use to get access to seeing whenever someone has a high MMR or not?
    I'm only using what tools the game already has. Namely, look a player up via the watch tab and play around with the skill filters to see where his matches are normally placed on.

  2. #1402
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Doesn't happen often that people play for stats.
    Yes it does. You still don't get it that not everybody is like you but are retards who play this way. The killsteal level in HoN is way bigger than in Dota
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    They already play for having a good in-game score since you get flamed and get called a feeder if you die a lot anyway. There is no way to prohibe that people flame stats as long as there is a chat in the game. (now I dare you to not even get the idea to disable the chat in order to improve the community)
    Why do you think there is a mute fuction? Think about this and I'll answer subsequently to your answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Private stats however are already available, and even IF they play for increasing them, they are doing a hell of a good job by winning games. The same way as in HoN.
    Increasing your stat doesn't mean winning, I can 5/0 with tiny when losing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Seeing people that play for stats in an intollerant manner in HoN is as usual as having a dumbass denying you mid for not having as many wins as you do.
    It happens, but be honest to yourself, it's not even happening a quarter of your games.
    No to be honest it does happen for half of my games, that's too much. You can say what you want about me blowing this out of my ass I know what I experienced.



    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Although I don't support fighting between teammates it is better to argue with actual statistics to back you up than having empty arguements like "i have more wins than you".
    Actual statistics you calling them? Even when they have no meaning. I don't even care for the wins my teammates have since I trust the matchmaking system to put me with equal players. Valve could drop the wins for me, I don't gain anything by knowing them. You can see all the butthurts in the "onesided match log" thread all displaying the wins of their teammates when it doesn't even hold any meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Anyway, that is not the point.
    Now let us see how the downside is of not having stats:

    - People will not know what their team is capable of. Since you have no idea what your teammates are like you have to rely on your luck, pick a carry like everyone else and hope that you get the best farm.
    No people will, since you are with your equals due to matchmaking. This also a point where I want a reaction from you, why do you expect to be with players worse and better than you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - You will never know if you actually improved or if it just seems so.
    No, I know I improve without looking at my stats. My map awareness and positioning have increased a lot since I tried to watch every 5 seconds at the map and learned a lot more about vision.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - It is not encouraging to play games only to gain cosmetics for most players (which are also only there to show off and encourage flaming, you want to disable them too?)
    No it does not encourage flaming as people do not count it as a measure of someone's skill. I do not care for cosmetics I just want to play the game and get better.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - Over a longer period of time players that play the game a lot and want to become competitive players will lose the interest because there is no way for them to show how good they are.
    Why do you want to show off to people you never see again in a match. Teams get fame, since it's likely they will face each other again (which is competition). You however never see them again. (already mentioned, but again, most time I played with the same person without forming a team is 4 in 420 games.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - If people will play the way they want and there is nothing to gain, games will and already turn out like "No Stats" games in HoN. An uncontrollable chaos, might be fun sometimes, not if you want to win.
    Nothing to gain? Do you play with your cat to gain something? Fun, get better, no need for stats for that, unless you finally want to admit you just want a bigger peen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - You will never know if MM actually balances people after their skill level, or Valve only says it does. Stats help players finding errors in the system.
    So you answered it here. But let me ask you, do you know the difference between outplayed or being bad? We only know if it's true to find "errors" in the system if the stats are representing skill, but we don't even know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - Without stats the game is less fun for "hardcore" players.
    You call yourself a "hardcore" player? I would like to ask the ones who play dota for a living how stats have affected their progress, I think you'll get disappointed. I'm finding myself pretty "hardcore" but don't need stats for that since the improvements I need to make aren't showed in any of the number I would be given (going by HoN stats)
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - You can't earn money from hard-core players anymore.
    You saying Hardcore players don't buy customization items? Valve's income will mostly come from "casual" (like you call it) gamers (do you actually have any idea how much the hats in TF2 brought up? It's ridiculously high, you're probably astonished how many will buy customizations)
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    - Valve would ruin a money making oppertunity. You can only guess how much real statwhores pay in order to reset their stats just so they have an improvement of like 0.2 kd.
    Wow there must be a lot of statwhores :O....... wait is this a good thing? I thought stats were all about improving yourself by looking at them, what do you gain if you reset them, you'll practically fool yourself :O



    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Not at all. I have seen countless of people that have like 40% win but a kd of 3. Those are people who ruin the game and the reason why stats aren't in this game yet. But those people only make about 1% of the community.
    Too bad I, and others, encounter so much of those people who btw have normal winrate and just a KD of 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Why should the other 99% get punished by not having stats?
    Funny you think yourself as 99%. I can't really change your perception sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    I rather have a KD of 0.5 and like 60 - 70% win just to show that i am capable of winning the way I play than having a high KD which is meaningless.
    Too bad 99% of the stat lovers are the other way around. Oh and 60 - 70 % winrate shouldn't happen, then matchmaking is seriously broken. (wow do you actually realize how ridiculously high this is?)

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Also:
    If you introduce stats you would have like to have them as detailed as possible.
    That would mean:

    Not only showing average KD and all other stats for all heroes together,
    You would want to have detailed stats for every hero you ever played more than 5 - 10 games with.
    Hi I learn invoker in 10 games! Sorry no I don't. Open for interpretation also, since most heroes aren't role specific. Or is it? Would like a comment from you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    The more detailed the stats are, the more effective and fair they are.
    Interpretation. Perfect stats do not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    What many people that get harassed for having bad stats also have to do is just saying "ok, I'm not as good as you, but I am trying to improve"
    Sentences like that often cause more productive teamplay and maybe even new gaming friends
    I hope they don't. That would mean acknowledging stats as a skill measure. Problem isn't the guy with low stats, it's the one with "better" who thinks "oh shit I'm with apparent noobs" not great when teamwork is on the line. You know why professional teams play so well? Since they trust each other. People won't trust someone who's apparently bad. I complement people when they successfully ganked by saying "nj!"




    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Worked in HoN for me.
    Sad that you give credit to your stats while it was all you by just playing the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    When I came from dota to HoN i was a really bad player.
    Me too
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Then I became sort of a KD whore, which didn't bring me much further since I still was bad and failed to get a lot of kills so I tried focusing on just winning and improving my other stats.
    Okay, so what's wrong with focusing on just winning? I just played and got better, never payed attention to stats. Btw does that make you think you are better than me? By saying I never payed attention to stats?
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    In almost 3 years of HoN I have become a way better simply because I tried to "immitate" others that i thought were better than me. I compared the stats, I tried to improve the areas that lacked.
    So if you lost a lane to someone who proved he was better by beating you, you didn't try to imitate him? By watching streams you did not want to imitate? Only because you saw stats? There are people with great stats who buy vlads first for Riki.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Having something to determine someones skill level is better than nothing at all.
    Sorry if you can't determine someones skill level by seeing him play.




    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    A higher KD often tends that people know good positions.
    I could go in with high nukes (parasite comes to mind) kill 1 and die too. My KDR is 1, seems better than one with 0,5 right?
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Good positioning is something I am still working a lot on, since it get's me killed and is the reason for my lower KD:A
    But you only noticed your positioning was bad since you had low KDR right? If so, I'm sorry for you again. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Initiation is the same thing. A player that plays initiation heroes a lot and has a great KD:A knows how to initate.
    Axe. Think about it. (hint: Skills and roles)

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Again:
    More detailed stats give you a more detailed view on your own and others skills.
    If they were representative yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    What I and others mean is probably that not having stats hasen't improved the community for shit and that it so far only has punished the people that want to have stats.
    No I actually enjoy Dota 2 a lot more since I don't have to deal with me sometimes being brown or orange player or since my KDR wasn't that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    A guy who has killed 6 people and is out of ammo will find another way to kill people with if he still has the intention. Often that way is slower and more painful.
    This actually made me laugh. Well this time he can't since he isn't able to making it slower and more painful. You did agree the community would get (a bit) worse (that's the more painful and slower).
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Compared to stats right now it is like:
    People that flamed others stats don't have stats to flame with now, so what do they do? They flame your most heroes played and how many games you won. Which is far more annoying and it happens to me as often as someone flamed someones stats in HoN.
    1 % right? I can happily say they haven't done that to me. As I said before, they could drop the wins since I agree with you that they flame for it (one sided matchmaking is full with it)
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Is it dangerous for me? No it is not. I report them if they continue to harass me and intentionally let me die and so on. I don't get butthurt, go to the forum, and cry about removing the information about how many games I've won because it won't stop the bad guys.
    You actually should since it's a source of bad conduct. Since it's obviously gamebreaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    The only reason why people still behave a bit is because they are afraid to lose their access to the closed beta.
    You might be right about it having effect. I'm not that happy about it going F2P.


    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    The solution for all of dota2's problems is to censor everything.
    Censor the stats
    Censor the chat
    Censor the wins
    Censor the items
    Stats and wins yes. Chat is key for teamwork and can be muted. Items ....... customization or ingame? (Phase boots etc.)
    If customizations no, since it hasn't been a cause for bad conduct.
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    That is how you prevent bad guys from flaming. But it would ruin the game for all the others. And Valve has already started with the first point.
    I see you still playing, to be honest I don't think you'll stop. And I think that Valve is doing a great job with this game I also have faith in Valve not implementing stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Also:
    having visible stats would prevent a lot of people from leaving games.
    Why



    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Since this game is in beta, why not try it out at least?
    I'm sure the major part of the community would love it.
    Few weeks isn't enough

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Considering that a lot of my friends left the game for example and went back to HoN since there aren't any stats and they don't really think it's a point to play dota2 just to gain nothing. At least those 11 guys will be back.
    It's not like HoN is better than Dota2, It's just pointless to play it atm.
    Too bad they play for stats. (one time you play to win and now you're back to stats, make up your mind)

  3. #1403
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sweden, USA, Germany
    Posts
    2,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Yes it does. You still don't get it that not everybody is like you but are retards who play this way. The killsteal level in HoN is way bigger than in Dota
    That depends what bracket you play in.
    Lower brackets in dota have a higher amount of killsteals and people complaining about it, like in HoN.
    The lower your MMR is, (the lower your skill level is) the more stats matter to compare the skill. This is the bad part about it. When people who don't know how stats work use stats in order to make themselves look as a better player it turns into people who flame others because of stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Why do you think there is a mute fuction? Think about this and I'll answer subsequently to your answer.
    You can also mute people that flame your stats can you?
    So what is the problem with stats again then you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Increasing your stat doesn't mean winning, I can 5/0 with tiny when losing the game.
    But it does mean that you are overall a good player and could be unlucky by playing with bad people in your bracket.
    You can show off to others that you are a trustworthy teachet since you have better stats than them. This is how it usually works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No to be honest it does happen for half of my games, that's too much. You can say what you want about me blowing this out of my ass I know what I experienced.
    I can say the same thing:
    I've expierienced a lot of trashtalk without stats. The same amount as with stats.
    So this means that not having stats does not improve the community.
    Again, it only punishes the people that would like to have stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Actual statistics you calling them? Even when they have no meaning. I don't even care for the wins my teammates have since I trust the matchmaking system to put me with equal players. Valve could drop the wins for me, I don't gain anything by knowing them. You can see all the butthurts in the "onesided match log" thread all displaying the wins of their teammates when it doesn't even hold any meaning.
    The game is in beta. the matchmaking system is not yet finished.
    Having stats and visible MMR would help the players to fill out the imperfect balancing.

    There is nothing perfect in this world, but some things are closer to it than others. But I am not here to talk about philosphy, I want to show people that it is obvious that a game like this needs stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No people will, since you are with your equals due to matchmaking. This also a point where I want a reaction from you, why do you expect to be with players worse and better than you.
    Because no rating system is perfect.
    The more detailed a rating system is though the closer it is to perfect.

    In HoN they invented a new sort of queuing system:
    "Play fairer matches or shorter queue times"
    On accounts I want to have fun, I take the shorter queue times. When I am tired of simply having fun, I go to my main and play serious games. And that is the part that dota2 lacks.

    So far NO MATCH IN DOTA2 is as serious as in HoN. The excitement about winning a hard game isn't there.
    If you accomplish to win a really hard game which will improve your MMR and your stats, and take you to the next level/bracket, you will feel really really satisfied.
    I still get this feeling in HoN sometimes.
    Never had it in dota2 because it doesn't matter if you win or not.

    And this is what OP has been talking about as well.
    What IS the point of trying to win?
    If you simply play without stats like you do now and still try to improve, there isn't just going to be a random guy coming to you, handing you a trophy as a sign that you have accomplished something that you personally worked for.
    I am now mostly refering to MMR, but MMR is also a stat.
    Stats just show your skill level more specifically than the overall MMR. Which is why there should be different stat pages for the different brackets on the same player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No, I know I improve without looking at my stats. My map awareness and positioning have increased a lot since I tried to watch every 5 seconds at the map and learned a lot more about vision.
    Of course you do. But for what? Again, there is nothing to achieve in dota2 else than cosmetics.
    There is no way to convince a random guy that they might want to play with you in order to become better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No it does not encourage flaming as people do not count it as a measure of someone's skill. I do not care for cosmetics I just want to play the game and get better.
    Again:
    For what? There is nothing that shows your personal accomplishment.
    Admit it: If you continue to play seriously, trying to become better but nobody sees a damn difference except for how many matches you have played you will stop to find the game fun and exciting and move on to the next game.
    This is not an MMORPG where there comes a new patch with new gamebreaking content to keep the players playing. This is an exact copy of dota1, meant to make it into some sort of real game. And in an real modern game you need stats and visible mmr, because this is this is the way of people to show to each other that they are good players or need to practise more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Why do you want to show off to people you never see again in a match. Teams get fame, since it's likely they will face each other again (which is competition). You however never see them again. (already mentioned, but again, most time I played with the same person without forming a team is 4 in 420 games.
    I sometimes see people again from previous matches.
    People can become friends with each other as well.
    Sometimes people find me playing good and ask me to teach them. Sometimes I do that as well.
    It is easier to find someone who is better than you through stats though.

    It also feels more giving for you if you defeat someone in mid who has far better stats and a higher MMR than you, as well as it feels less humiliating to lose mid against someone who you see is better than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Nothing to gain? Do you play with your cat to gain something? Fun, get better, no need for stats for that, unless you finally want to admit you just want a bigger peen.
    Playing with your cat for fun is one thing.
    Now think about this:
    You go to competitions with your cat where you seriously want to win. Even if it isn't a world championship and it is just a casual "cat tournament" of who can make his cat do the best tricks, you still want to win and you want to show your accomplishment and victory to others.

    The difference is, if you really want to get good, you want to show it as well.
    In dota2 you can't show it to others more than saying "dude i'm a pr0 haxxor player"

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    So you answered it here. But let me ask you, do you know the difference between outplayed or being bad? We only know if it's true to find "errors" in the system if the stats are representing skill, but we don't even know that.
    Be honest to yourself.
    A person with higher mmr and good stats is a far better player with low mmr and bad stats.
    The more detailed stats are, the more accurate you can tell someones or your own skill level. But you need to compare to others if your stats are good or bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    You call yourself a "hardcore" player? I would like to ask the ones who play dota for a living how stats have affected their progress, I think you'll get disappointed. I'm finding myself pretty "hardcore" but don't need stats for that since the improvements I need to make aren't showed in any of the number I would be given (going by HoN stats)
    i said "hardcore" because I can't really describe it more than that i am very interested in dota and dota2, play it regulary, try to become better, try to find a good team to play with. I had a way easier time doing that in HoN because of the visible mmr and stats.
    I don't think that when I would play dota for a living I wouldn't give a damn about stats or rating. Since then I have accomplished getting to the point where stats and visible player ranking is supposed to bring you easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    You saying Hardcore players don't buy customization items? Valve's income will mostly come from "casual" (like you call it) gamers (do you actually have any idea how much the hats in TF2 brought up? It's ridiculously high, you're probably astonished how many will buy customizations)
    I know and I have also bought custimizations in order to support valve since they are making a game.
    As an investor (even if it's a small amount compared to others) I really just want that the product continues to improve. Statistics are a way to improve the game expierience for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Wow there must be a lot of statwhores :O....... wait is this a good thing? I thought stats were all about improving yourself by looking at them, what do you gain if you reset them, you'll practically fool yourself :O
    Anyone can be a statwhore without activily trying to improve the stats. What is wrong about being a statwhore even though it doesn't affect your gameplay since your goal is to win?


    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Funny you think yourself as 99%. I can't really change your perception sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Too bad 99% of the stat lovers are the other way around. Oh and 60 - 70 % winrate shouldn't happen, then matchmaking is seriously broken. (wow do you actually realize how ridiculously high this is?)
    It was just an example.
    Seeing how you are starting to reply for my posts only shows off that you are butthurt, which is probably why you are here argueing against stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Hi I learn invoker in 10 games! Sorry no I don't. Open for interpretation also, since most heroes aren't role specific. Or is it? Would like a comment from you here.
    There are practise games against bots.
    There are practise games against other players.

    Currently in this game, the name "no stats at all games" suit a way better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Interpretation. Perfect stats do not exist.
    The more detailed they are, the closer to perfect they are.
    Having no stats at all just leaves everyone out in the blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    I hope they don't. That would mean acknowledging stats as a skill measure. Problem isn't the guy with low stats, it's the one with "better" who thinks "oh shit I'm with apparent noobs" not great when teamwork is on the line. You know why professional teams play so well? Since they trust each other. People won't trust someone who's apparently bad. I complement people when they successfully ganked by saying "nj!"
    Yet again:
    It shows that you rather say to someone who is calling you bad because of your stats that his "theory" isn't true and that stats tell nothing.
    It just means that you are butthurt and won't admit that you aren't as good as him. If you just would be nice to him he might stop being in a bad mood towards you and that is better for the teamplay.
    Although he shouldn't flame your stats, it is still your choice to either start a discussion in game whenever stats are accurate or not or to win the game.

    Some random stats are more accurate than no stats at all in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Okay, so what's wrong with focusing on just winning? I just played and got better, never payed attention to stats. Btw does that make you think you are better than me? By saying I never payed attention to stats?
    You have your way of playing, I have my way.
    It just is another proof that this community has two different sides which is why we should have 2 different matchmakings.

    I have a question for you though:
    In all that time in HoN, Why didn't you just ONLY play No Stats all the time?
    It should've been the exact same thing as dota2 is, am i right?

    And if you did that, I am amazed that you haven't bored yourself to death yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    So if you lost a lane to someone who proved he was better by beating you, you didn't try to imitate him? By watching streams you did not want to imitate? Only because you saw stats? There are people with great stats who buy vlads first for Riki.
    I did start with checking their stats, then I checked replays.
    However:

    I cannot tell if someone who beat me just made it because he had a good day or something like that. So I would have to look through at least 10 of his games in order to see whenever he is good or not. This would take a huge amount of time for something that could be made so simple.
    This is where stats come in:
    Stats and MMR tell you how someone plays in average.


    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Sorry if you can't determine someones skill level by seeing him play.
    I can, but as I said, it would take a lot of time.
    if it's in game, it is often far too late when you realize that you are losing because you trusted someone who is in fact a terrible player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    I could go in with high nukes (parasite comes to mind) kill 1 and die too. My KDR is 1, seems better than one with 0,5 right?
    Ok so every time you kill someone you also die in every game? then it is fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    But you only noticed your positioning was bad since you had low KDR right? If so, I'm sorry for you again. :/
    I said that a higher KD:A tends to show that someone is good at positioning and initiating.
    (KD:A )= Kill / Death + Assist ratio)

    This is why stats should be more detailed as well.
    Less missunderstandings will occour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    No I actually enjoy Dota 2 a lot more since I don't have to deal with me sometimes being brown or orange player or since my KDR wasn't that great.
    Again:
    You could've played no stats if you couldn't stand the fact that you were called a baddie for being, well bad.
    I don't blame you. Everyone plays bad at some points. But you, like so many others, instead of just accepting the fact that you aren't as good as others, you start this whole "stats mean nothing at all" thing which is just total bullcrap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    This actually made me laugh. Well this time he can't since he isn't able to making it slower and more painful. You did agree the community would get (a bit) worse (that's the more painful and slower).
    I was more reffering to that currently people come with such stupid arguements to break people down that it is more painful for new players than just saying "hey, your KD is low, please don't feed that much, better let me mid, I will win the game"


    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    You might be right about it having effect. I'm not that happy about it going F2P.
    Why not?
    I like new people, I like to teach people to become better. If it is free there are going to be more people.
    This is why stats also are important:
    You won't be able to tell the difference between a new player or someone who just made a new account in order to stomp people.
    In private games this would have a great advantage so that people could filter out people who made new accounts so that they can play with people of their actual skill level.

    Matchmaking won't be perfect since people just can create new accounts just to fool it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Stats and wins yes. Chat is key for teamwork and can be muted. Items ....... customization or ingame? (Phase boots etc.)
    If customizations no, since it hasn't been a cause for bad conduct.
    Again:
    you can always mute the people who flame your stats as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    I see you still playing, to be honest I don't think you'll stop. And I think that Valve is doing a great job with this game I also have faith in Valve not implementing stats.
    Just another reason why there should be two different matchmakings. One with stats and one without.
    And well, I play less and less dota2 since it doesn't feel as accomplishing as HoN for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Why
    Because people will be afraid to have something bad on their stats.
    You could see stats as some kind of grade you get in school. I don't think it looks good on your grade seeing how many classes you've skipped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Few weeks isn't enough
    It hasn't been announced when the beta is finished. They can test it for as long as they need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Too bad they play for stats. (one time you play to win and now you're back to stats, make up your mind)
    As I said, I count MMR to stats.
    I mostly play in order to improve my MMR and get to higher rated games because well, that makes me get matched against better players and will improve my skill.
    In dota2 I don't know whenever I am improving or not. I have no clue how the balancing in this game works since I win most of my games that I play a day.
    In HoN i only win about every 2nd match, which seems fair since that is where my skill level goes so far.

  4. #1404
    Quote Originally Posted by Trem View Post


    Average k/d, wards, creepkills & denies should be introduced into everyones profile so anyone can check it out.



    .
    NO NO NO NO NO NO AND NO! This isn't Heroes of Newerth! KD is a very bad idea - it defeats the purpose of a team-based game.

    How many times have I heard in HoN: WOW GUYS THIS GUY HAS 0.70KD LMFAO WHAT A NOOB ->>>> really? The guy plays support?

    KD IS A BAD IDEA! Your thread should be closed! Implanting KD and no one will want to support anymore, at least with dota 2 I can play stress free - i dont have to worry about dying. Not to mention people like you that judge players based on their KD

    SHAME ON YOU!!!

  5. #1405
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sweden, USA, Germany
    Posts
    2,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelevante View Post
    I'm only using what tools the game already has. Namely, look a player up via the watch tab and play around with the skill filters to see where his matches are normally placed on.
    You know that Players in Watch Tab can be everyone from the low to the very high tier? There still is no way to tell if someone is in the high tier or not...
    I would have to watch through at least 10 or 15 games of a person in order to determine their skill level and to assign them to a bracket.
    If I would had the average numbers and an MMR it would be far easier.

    Know what, If you have HoN installed take the numbers from there instead.

    I hope that this actually shows you what an pain in the ass it is to look through tons of games where the stats are displayed and then calculate them together, when it could be so simple to just see the average stats on an own page.

    Quote Originally Posted by premium_sauce
    NO NO NO NO NO NO AND NO! This isn't Heroes of Newerth! KD is a very bad idea - it defeats the purpose of a team-based game.

    How many times have I heard in HoN: WOW GUYS THIS GUY HAS 0.70KD LMFAO WHAT A NOOB ->>>> really? The guy plays support?

    KD IS A BAD IDEA! Your thread should be closed! Implanting KD and no one will want to support anymore, at least with dota 2 I can play stress free - i dont have to worry about dying. Not to mention people like you that judge players based on their KD

    SHAME ON YOU!!!
    Why didn't you only play "No Stats" in HoN?
    If you are butthurt and can't take it when people call you bad when you obviously are bad with something then either ignore them or play No Stats.

    I also have a below average KD but I didn't give much of a shit about it.
    I find it a good thing, because yeah: My positioning skill sucks, that is why my KD is low since it gets me killed a lot of times. But I am working on it.
    It is only good that the people on your team know your skill level and what you are capapable of. It helps them to pick a hero that suits for winning the game easier. Even if they only had a glimpse on your stats.
    If you are a support player and therefore have a low KD, then play support if you so much want to show them that you really are a good player.
    KD isn't the most important stat at all though. The most important one is the MMR and the Win%. Since it well, shows you what bracket you play in and how often you win. Which is the goal of the game.

    However: People should not flame your stats. It should be reportable like in HoN. Since this actually helps. (yes you can actually report people for flaming your stats there)

    And no, stats don't ruin the purpose of a team-based game at all. In fact the thing stats you is to warn you: Who is a good player that you can rely on, and who is not?
    You are getting queued with people who can tell nothing about themselves. By the time you realize how bad they could be, your hero is already picked, the game has lasted about 20 - 25 minutes and well. there is no turn around. Since dota2 doesn't have a concede function either you are stuck, playing with those people until the other team decides to actually finish the game.

    And lastly:
    Yes, This game is almost like Heroes of Newerth. Since that game is a perfect example.
    We should both take what was good from there and try to keep away what was bad from there.
    In the meaning of more fun and feeling better accomplishment when winning games: Take the visible MMR and the Stats from there. Even though it might create a bit more flaming. I'm sure Valve will add a No-Stats mode where people can play without stats, like in HoN.

    Quote Originally Posted by premium_sauce
    at least with dota 2 I can play stress free - i dont have to worry about dying. Not to mention people like you that judge players based on their KD
    Did I mention No Stats in HoN yet?

    All I hear from people against stats is how butthurt they are since they have a lower KD. Seriously? I also have a lower KD and I don't cry like this kid.
    The game isn't going to become good if Valve decides suit it for the lowest bracket. It might get a lot of players, but people will lose the interest in it soon because there is nothing else to gain other than cosmetics.
    Even LoL has some sort of stats and they are doing more than fine, even in their community.
    Last edited by ranaki; 07-09-2012 at 04:25 AM.

  6. #1406
    Too bad you think I'm butthurt and bad by opposing stats.

    Nostats was for public games. There's no matchmaking there, so the skill difference was big. Also it had a lot of leavers since there was no punishments for leaving.

    You fail to see what I meant by the mute function. You see and admit only the flaming which you can mute. You do not see the not participating in teambattles since players don't trust each other.

    I give up on this thread, I can say whatever I want without changing your mind. I do not see this as losing the argument, there's just no reason for me to keep on trying. As I said, it's like convincing a religious man to give up his believes.

    Still find it sad you are unable to improve without stats and think of me as a bad player since I oppose this idea.

    Conclusion: I trust Valve will do the right thing.

  7. #1407
    Basic Member Irrelevante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    3,061
    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    You know that Players in Watch Tab can be everyone from the low to the very high tier? There still is no way to tell if someone is in the high tier or not...
    I do research my data as much as possible. For example, I've already spotted around 6 players who have been playing in very high skill matches due to being partied. www.stats.dota2.be provides a list of people who have partied with a certain player, so I've been able to properly place two players in their proper skill tier so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    I would have to watch through at least 10 or 15 games of a person in order to determine their skill level and to assign them to a bracket.
    If I would had the average numbers and an MMR it would be far easier.
    If we had access to other's MMR, we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? I could try to ask a dev to provide the MMRs of the people I'm trying to use for the test, but chances are they won't feel comfortable with releasing private info of other players. Not to mention that the test is moot if you actually have access to other's MMR.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    Know what, If you have HoN installed take the numbers from there instead.
    We ain't doing a test for HoN's stats reliability, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ranaki View Post
    I hope that this actually shows you what an pain in the ass it is to look through tons of games where the stats are displayed and then calculate them together, when it could be so simple to just see the average stats on an own page.
    It is a pain in the ass if I'm trying to properly assess the skill level of a player. While playing pubs, though, I've no need to do so, because the MM algorithm is already doing that for me. As for the best possible lineup, I simply talk to my current team. Chances are even if I knew what role they best play as, I wouldn't force them to pick said role because I've no authority over players I just met.

    I'll provide the stats as accurately as possible, but I can only provide stats which I can already gather. KD, K+A/D, avg GPM, avg XPM, most succesful heroes, winrate %. All of which will be calculated from the 50 game sample of each player. Those are the stats I'm generating so far. Please let me know if you feel that's enough information to decide wether or not to continue gathering data from the remaining 3 players.

  8. #1408
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sweden, USA, Germany
    Posts
    2,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelevante View Post
    I'll provide the stats as accurately as possible, but I can only provide stats which I can already gather. KD, K+A/D, avg GPM, avg XPM, most succesful heroes, winrate %. All of which will be calculated from the 50 game sample of each player. Those are the stats I'm generating so far. Please let me know if you feel that's enough information to decide wether or not to continue gathering data from the remaining 3 players.
    Yeah those stats would probably work pretty fine
    If you want a small test which probably might be inaccurate you can give me with win% of different players.
    You can often tell what tier they play in by simply that without MMR.

    take this one for example:
    http://stats.dota2.be/player/62844993

    This is a friend of mine, He plays in the higher tier, maybe not very high since he doesn't have that many games but definatly almost there.
    Since he has almost 60% wins.

    If he gets queued with low tier players, a 60% win would be very unfair right? therefore the MM system would be a failure. But there is no way to proove that right now is there?
    however, if you display the last 50 games you see him climbing to a point where he starts to lose more. Or could that be because he has computer problems and is therefore unable to play dota2 without having his computer freeze? remember that you get an auto-loss when you leave a game.
    This means that his win% will lower a bit, but his stats will still remain suited for the high tier.
    Last edited by ranaki; 07-09-2012 at 05:34 AM.

  9. #1409
    Core Tester Chairraider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,417
    I think there is nothing possibly left to say, we should have probably closed this much earlier. If someone urgently feels like he has to still post something you can pm me and I will edit it into the closed thread.

    New threads on stats will be closed (1 thread per issue).
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Adding this post from Skonky http://dev.dota2.com/member.php?u=20651 for him because he was just about to post when I closed:
    I am entirely against stats like the ones people are mentioning. I was playing HoN for a while and I was so bored with it because people only cared about stats. Its the mindset like some people here that are the worst in these kind of games. You say u don't care if you win or lose as long as there are stats, or you care that you win if you will get a higher mmr that you can see, and climb a ladder. I agree that it could be cool with a ladder system, however stats are so detrimental to a team based game that it isn't even funny that so many people want to implement them.
    .
    In HoN I experienced several losses because one or two people decided that they would go AFK because they didn't want to lower their KDR anymore than it had been affected by the game. This has never happened to me in Dota 2 and I am so happy about that. I play the game because I enjoy the game, not increasing my stats. The same reason I like to play basketball or soccer. Its great fun to just play. The point is to win, and its great fun to win, however the most fun is when I really have to concentrate and play my best because the teams are so equal. This is not caused by one or two people getting all the kills, or all the scores. Its the most fun when a team works together and wins because of their coordination and teamwork! Not from getting kills. I have won several games where my team had less kills than the enemy, and I have lost games when we had more kills than them. The reasons are usually that the team with the best coordination and teamwork wins. Not because of one single good player who goes around and wants to increase his stats.

    Do you guys play any other sport? do you play them just to get a score? like say you only play soccer to count how many goals you have scored compared to your friends. What about your goalie? is he automatically the worst player on the team because he hasn't scored any goals? Surely not. You might say that you can then measure how many balls he has saved as well, but that is only one way to measure his personal skills. Also one person might be awsome in one role with a certain team, but put him in another team he doesn't do well at all even though he has the same role.

    Personal stats are detrimental to a teambased game! Do not implement it please Valve!!

    I feel this discussion is the same as the one going on about wether there should be a concede button or not. Do people in sports forfeit a game because they get stomped? No they don't! But I feel it is the same people that want a concede button that want stats, all just to add a certain element to control their stats, so they don't get ruined too much, just like it is used in HoN. This game is not HoN! I do not want it to turn into HoN. This is DOTA! Everything Valve has done so far has been great! They have my complete trust in that they will do what is best for the game and not implement things that ruined other games.
    Last edited by Chairraider; 07-15-2012 at 12:36 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •