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Thread: "Unfair" Bots still with *several* notable issues

  1. #1
    Basic Member Vulpes's Avatar
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    "Unfair" Bots still with *several* notable issues

    I just almost lost my first Botgame ever due to several issues.. and only didn't lose because of several other issues.

    Starting this off with: Good job on the general part. Bots have improved drastically; they actually attack me in lane now!
    They're still no threat but at least I'm not laning against air anymore. They build better items, they're less likely to do retarded shit,
    I can't always 1v4 them anymore, and they actually stay threatening throughout the game because they get some farm in.

    Now, to the bad parts:
    - Bots have gotten way less likely to carry TPs early (and use them). Happened fairly often to me that Bots towerdove me at the ~10 minute mark, I was kiting around the tower for minutes and either no bot reacted at all to the pings, or someone wrote "Defending Mid" and started walking there.
    - Bots have gotten less reactive to pings and don't really take the human player into consideration. Multiple times they pushed 4v5 without me anywhere nearby, pings not doing anything, they getting shipwrecked
    - Bots are way, way, way too suspectible to AoE.
    - Bots still don't abuse lane advantage enough, particularly not against other Bots (dual range Bots vs dual melee Bots will be an almost equal lane)
    - Invulnerability makes Bots think the character just disappeared. If I get attacked by 3 Bots and Euls myself, instead of surrounding the cyclone, waiting the 2.5s and killing me.. they run away, allowing me a free escape.
    - Bots don't give a damn about most ganks. Neither allied nor opposing, actually. Running behind the opponents, wildly pinging, my teams Bots won't attack the enemies until I literally stand inside of them. And the opponents wont react any sooner either (or sometimes not even then, allowing me to run circles around them and they just keep creeping or w/e)
    - Bots still don't buy sufficient amount of Items (ending games with 10k Gold+)
    - Bots don't even care about their ancient, don't care about pushing, don't pick up Aegis/Cheese ever (I had a full inventory, killed Roshan, my whole team runs out of Roshpit, pinging doesn't help, I drop an Item + pick Aegis, die, run back to pit (this is 5 minutes later) and pick up the Cheese)
    - Bots still do really random things (whole enemy team disappearing out of vision range 5 minutes in, then after 1 minute of them being nowhere to be found, 4 of them appear mid, quadlane mid for a while, then go back to their respective lanes)

    These are the endgame stats: http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/48...26701CEC462DB/

    I pretty much shipwrecked the opponents (started out 11-0-4). If I'm taking part in 60 kills, my team should have more than 68 total, and with me on 8 deaths it's fairly confusing as to why the opponents actually outdo us killwise. Easy reason: All 4 of my teammates are negative. Because they simply melted in every single teamfight (often without me anywhere near since they decided it'd be cool to teamfight 4v5 or even 3v5).
    The main reasons for me winning this are trifold:
    1) Sniper and Jugg not using their cash. Sniper has 15k cash and a WraithBand in his inventory, Jugg sits on 10k with 2 free inventory slots.
    2) I solopushed 2 raxes (Yes. We won a teamfight, my 3 teammates did .. {nothing}, I travelbooted to top lane and took out two raxes), and the opponents never cared. As you can see on the map, none of us is anywhere near their base - creeps completely destroyed it with none of Dire being interested in that.
    3) Biggest reason: Jugg+Kunkka+Tide kept fountaindiving. There were at least 3 teamfights where all of my team bar me was dead, the opponents had lost Sniper+ES, and instead of killing our rax they followed me into my fountain (even while I was on full HP) and chased me there in circles, dying.
    + the aforementioned problems (like me racking up on easy kills by running behind two opponents and neither reacting until they both were on half life)

    Oh and while Bane buys Necronomicon, he doesn't actually use the Units. They just stand around wherever he summoned them.
    And they don't really respect my options. I got 2 kills on a 300HP ES who just stood near me (he escaped, then next creepwave came and he went back to lane on 300 HP) as I was lvl7 and could kill him in a Blast.

    I know this sounds supercritical and shit, but honestly, thumbs up. They've gotten a lot better. If you remove the fountain dives, the random 3v5 pushes and the instantmelts to AoE, these guys will be pretty good. There'll still be issues like not reacting to ganks, not listening to pings, letting Aegis lie around etc, but those are "minor" issues which aren't really gamebreaking and even with those faults they'll be better than most of ranked players. Well done.

  2. #2
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    - Bots cannot handle aggression well. they often react too defensive when facing lane harassment even when the player walked past the enemies creepline.
    - Enemy Bots sometimes walk by without any reaction; for example when you are on your way to gank their teammate in 1200 aoe with all spells ready, they don't hinder you from getting to your target, you are basically allowed to walk in on them and maybe once you hit they react (happens quite often when tier 2 towers are destroyed)
    - the lone survivor vs 2 or more enemies not falling back after a lost teamfight, even though he is low and 1 nuke will kill him (noticed that when my tema won a fight, killing 3 enemies, getting tide very low. still tide ran back to his creepwave and then stayed around a bit, zeus pushed with the team and once tide was in range ofc zeus killed him with a nuke)

    - Lina often too passive with her spells, especially in earlygame when the damage is rly nice and she could build up some advantage (probably hard to make her more aggressive without permapushing the lane with her aoe), lasthits rather badly even on unfair
    - Bots don't seem to care for long range spells, even from heroes that are visible and near them (example: zeus)

    as op said, invulnerability from cycloning or bane's nightmare is handled very badly. Bots ignore them, so lets say if Invoker hit everyone with tornado and casts EMP under it, the allied bots won't proceed to engage any further but rather fall back because they do not detect enemy units. it is also important when bots are expected to finish of a low hp unit that got nightmare'd or cycloned.
    Bot tactics are also very forseeable. In midgame 4 or 5 bots will stay together. If you spot them somewhere, you can estimate that they are trying to push or defend that certain lane, which opens up the rest of the map for farming without risk. The would need some more variance to them. Wood ganks with smoke, more tps, baiting with single hero while the rest is hiding, etc.
    Last edited by mindfaQ; 03-08-2012 at 08:08 PM.
    specs for bugreports:
    i5-4200U
    AMD Radeon HD 8750M
    win 7


  3. #3
    Valve Developer
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    Thanks for the feedback -- a lot of it is known and on the todo list, but it's great having a summary like this.

    Comments on a bit of the feedback:
    - The TP thing is definitely a work in progress, before they would run halfway to pick up a TP scroll if they didn't have one, but it might be too tight in the other direction now.
    - We just added some infrastructure that will allow us to position the bots better, so they should be less susceptible to AoE soon.
    - In a game that long, I think bots just ran out of things in their loadout to buy. Guess I should add some more luxury items to carries. :-)
    - There are definitely issues with defending currently (exacerbated by the not-carrying-TPs issue). It's one of the areas we're still making a lot of revisions to.
    - Bots will currently always defer Aegis/Cheese to humans that are nearby. Maybe after a couple seconds of no humans picking them up, they should consider them free game?
    - Bots should be really, really unhappy about fountaindiving...maybe something about its avoidance is broken at the moment.

    Again, thanks for the feedback!

  4. #4
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    I don't know how well the the average person is vs. bots and game length/difficulty, but due to bots not "willing" to cooperate and generally just mind their own business at all times and situations(it feels like anyway), it seems that most bots stop acquiring items past midgame items.
    Only bots that seems to get "proper" items is tide/tiny. Examples of bots that, to me, seems to have no idea how to spend gold is bane and jugger, bane has an items build that includes necro book level 1, boots, tp scroll, mantle of intelligence and 2 more items I have forgotten, never any real variation and he never uses the mantle nor upgrades his necro book in addition to not microing the minions. jugger buys satanic, boots, battlefury and teleport scroll after that he just saves up the gold(for buy backs maybe?) regardless of how much gold he has(not uncommon for him to run around with more than 6k by the time the game ends)

  5. #5
    Valve Developer
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    We really need screenshots of any item issues that the bots are having.

  6. #6
    Basic Member EmblemLord's Avatar
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    There isn't an issue with the item builds per se. It's just that their current builds don't translate well into late late game (like 50+ minutes). I've mentioned this before for the "Carry" bots. Take Sniper for example. He usually ends his build with 3 major items (Shadow Blade, Desolator, Manta). It's not a bad build, but any human controlled Carry will easily have a superior build late game. The "Carry" bots cannot actually compete in lengthy games because they don't build a full item set (and they don't sell lesser items for expensive luxuries when the time comes).

    I would really like to see Carries buying impactful luxury items like Butterfly, Daedalus, or Monkey King Bar. Like the example above, a Juggernaut with Battle Fury and Satanic is not really a DPS monster past mid game. Perhaps have less focus on saving up for buyback gold/town portals for Carries only, especially when it is safe to do so (e.g. team has pushed lanes safely or is leading in levels/items already).

  7. #7
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    Due to the nature of my minimalistic keyboard I can't take screenshots.
    But these 3 bot games show a pretty good picture of what I am talking about(the ending stat screen)
    game id: 7536624 - 7402932 - 5629960

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