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Thread: map size / dimensions

  1. #11
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    I just don't see why everything has to be copied exactly, like so many DotA elitists bark about on these forums. IceFrog has been heavily involved in the development of the game, it's not like Valve is conquering this on their own. I'd love to see a variety of maps added, regardless of what is in DotA, like a 2-lane 3v3 map.
    I've never played DotA. I don't care how things were done in DotA. This is Dota 2. This is what I care about.

  2. #12
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    @mindfaq It's not a valid point you are making, just an opinion . I'm saying, take Dota2 as it is and play the game, too much comparison with Dota won't help dota2 .
    I am presenting numbers, numbers are not opinions. If you think the balancing influence is the discussion point of this thread, then I have to disappoint you, because it is the difference in map size. Also very nice that you get offended by my "opinion" but throw in nothing except your own opinion. I encouraged everyone to post his opinion, so it is good that you post your opinion, but stop insulting and maybe try to prove your opinion with facts next time, since that would really contribute to the discussion.

    ----

    so I did some test again with the flying courier (starts facing at a degree of 45 (between 1 and 2 o'clock) for mid, and with 0 for bottom (3 o'clock))
    all sentinel side
    mid tier 3 -> tier 1: 11,933 (Dota 2) vs 12,667 (DotA) seconds
    mid tier 3 -> tier 2: 5,1 (Dota 2) vs 5,833 (DotA) seconds (reason for large difference: in DotA the second tower is placed a bit more out of line than in Dota 2)
    bottom tier 3 -> tier 1: 25,367 (Dota 2) vs 28,4 (DotA) seconds

    differences: movement takes 5% | 14% | -0,5% longer than in Dota 2 to reach point B after starting at point A.

    cant test the river section or tier 3 sentinel to tier 3 dire because the courier will get sniped by the tower(s).

    Guess next time I'll test the time needed to fly between the tier 1 towers. Some other suggestions? Can ofc also try it with the hero, but there the influence of terrain characteristics and path finding would be more influential than the eventual mapsize-difference.
    Last edited by mindfaQ; 03-17-2012 at 12:59 PM.
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  3. #13
    Basic Member Mr.Evo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindfaQ View Post
    Germanstyle numbers.
    I lol'ed Greetings from Germany.

  4. #14
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    ^^ well depending on the language either . or , is used for the "nachkommastellen"
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  5. #15
    Basic Member Mr.Evo's Avatar
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    I <3 Nachkommastellen.

    @ Thread: I think it's negligible, if not even a balance to the right direction. It grants a bit more dynamic to the game. Never had a problem with it.

  6. #16
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    Re: map size / dimensions

    It would be nice to have some form of visual aid. Right now, I have to take your word for it that your results are correct and exact.

    You also didn't go into much detail in the specifics of this experiment.

    How did you time it?

    (Was Kunkka directed to face the direction he would be moving? or was he facing away from it? If he was facing the direction of his destination, how was it done so?[why is there no strikethrough?])You say you tried to make him look towards the lane. I was under the impression that it was impossible to turn a unit without causing them to slightly move, was I wrong? If so, how much of a factor would this slight move be?

    Was he behind the starting tower? in front of it? Did he end up behind the ending tower? in front of it? I'm going to assume there were no creeps in the way, were there?

    In any case.

    Has anyone considered that this might be a latency issue? Dota 2 requires a server to play the game, i.e. there will always be some form of delay.

    Another factor for concern is pathing. Is it simply possible that, despite the lack of obstacles, the path taken was different? In my own "tests" in DotA 1, Kunnka didn't travel in a perfectly straight line from Tier 3 to Tier 1 paths, mid or bot.

    Another question to ask is, does it really matter? How significant is a 5% difference? Is it worth the time and effort to try to fix the issue.


    I'm not going to argue whether or not the map is or isn't the same size. Valve has shown errors in calculating distance before(If I recall correctly, there were some issues with the range/AoE of some skills). If I were to hazard an uneducated guess, I'd say that it might be the ramps that are the issue.(Again, the game has been shown to have issues with terrain height, AFAIK.) I'm just asking. How many factors are in play here? and how much can they impact these experiments? and is the conclusion of any significant worth?
    Last edited by m0a0t; 03-18-2012 at 06:52 AM.

  7. #17
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    @m0a0t:
    I can do a video comparison, but I don't have any decent video composition software installed that can do a split screen comparison afaik and also my free time for such things is rather limited atm, so it has to wait a bit. It is a bit sad, that replays of single player games can't be saved and reviewed in dota, then I could visualize the movement of courier + also show the pointer at point B. But np, I can work around that.

    Delay btw would produce a constant time delay, not increasing time delay with increasing distance. You can rule it out. Starting point was when the cursor showed the command was issued (green arrows). Next time I can take exact time the courier starts moving for the measurments, but the differences will be not more than 33 ms, since I already tested this in the past.

    Just think of 5% in respect to the whole game time. In a 40 minutes game that would be 2 minutes. Now if we consider that we are not moving permanently, but only 50% of the time then it still would be 1 minute. 1 minute is a whole death cycle in migame. Ofc effects aren't huge but noticable, especially if you consider DotA's snowballing game nature (out of a small advantage in earlygame, a big advantage in lategame can arise)
    Last edited by mindfaQ; 03-18-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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  8. #18
    Basic Member BenSkysong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindfaQ View Post
    I am presenting numbers, numbers are not opinions. If you think the balancing influence is the discussion point of this thread, then I have to disappoint you, because it is the difference in map size. Also very nice that you get offended by my "opinion" but throw in nothing except your own opinion. I encouraged everyone to post his opinion, so it is good that you post your opinion, but stop insulting and maybe try to prove your opinion with facts next time, since that would really contribute to the discussion.

    ----

    so I did some test again with the flying courier (starts facing at a degree of 45 (between 1 and 2 o'clock) for mid, and with 0 for bottom (3 o'clock))
    all sentinel side
    mid tier 3 -> tier 1: 11,933 (Dota 2) vs 12,667 (DotA) seconds
    mid tier 3 -> tier 2: 5,1 (Dota 2) vs 5,833 (DotA) seconds (reason for large difference: in DotA the second tower is placed a bit more out of line than in Dota 2)
    bottom tier 3 -> tier 1: 25,367 (Dota 2) vs 28,4 (DotA) seconds

    differences: movement takes 5% | 14% | -0,5% longer than in Dota 2 to reach point B after starting at point A.

    cant test the river section or tier 3 sentinel to tier 3 dire because the courier will get sniped by the tower(s).

    Guess next time I'll test the time needed to fly between the tier 1 towers. Some other suggestions? Can ofc also try it with the hero, but there the influence of terrain characteristics and path finding would be more influential than the eventual mapsize-difference.

    Did you took response time into consideration?
    Your time measurement started after you right click the destination or when the courier actually started moving?
    I believe by my personal experience, Dota 2 response time is different from Dota 1.

    Furthermore, ramp length/width/angle in Dota 2 seems different too.
    Try measuring the time it takes for a hero to descent the ramp in front of radiant's mid tier 3 tower with the time it takes to descent the ramp from Sentinel's tier 3 tower in Dota 1.

    Or instead of using courier and heroes. Try measuring how long does it takes for mid creeps to clash in mid after first wave spawned.

  9. #19
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    Oh so i'm not the only one who is bothered by that?

    I really hate how mid lane is made noob friendly... Mid t3 tower attack range is starting at like 1 step upon entering ramp. So it feels totally different than in wc3 dota where it was actually about dominating your lane, and i mean DOMINATING. Now it looks like it's made for newbs, so they can feel more comfortable with less pressure from enemy.

    Take a look at this random video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mIqyhTlLpc

    How deep did pudge get over ramp before getting focused by tower @ 0:17, in dota2 that tower would attack him way sooner, which is at 0:13, just little bit after comming upon ramp. It gives those better players much less space.

    I really hate it, it's a HUGE difference. I can't OWN mid lane in dota2, just as in dota1. < No, i don't mean kills or cs score, i mean taking control over lane, putting pressure over your enemy, making him feel cornered, making him feel that he is on the lost position.

    This is not how it was in dota1. It really makes me feel sad because dota is my favourite game of all time, and i hate how it becomes noob friendly in a way that it hurts those more skilled people.

    And i doubt that valve will resize whole map, but i wish they would.
    Last edited by agfasfa; 03-18-2012 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #20
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    CvP unmannered
    eneryone has its own opinion
    mine is that these diferences are not mistake to be corrected but consious decisions and i agree with valve - icefrogs poin of view

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