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Thread: map size / dimensions

  1. #1
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    map size / dimensions

    Hello. I think many players are aware of the fact that the map is a bit smaller and heroes are visually bigger than in WC3. Lately professional players and commentators pointed it out as well, like Puppey, KuroKy and Slesh.

    I thought I do some exemplary measurements on this matter, and compare movement times from point A -> B between Dota 2 and Warcraft 3 DotA. I took Kunkka without Boots for every measurement, so the movementspeed would be 300. Germanstyle numbers.

    Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 1 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @mid: 13,967 (Dota 2) vs 14,733 (DotA) seconds
    Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 2 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @mid: 6,4 (Dota 2) vs 6,676 (DotA) seconds
    Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 1 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @bot: 29,567 (Dota 2) vs 29,5 (DotA) seconds
    running from bottom to top via River, starting at the ramp and finishing at the ramp: 44,533 (Dota 2) vs 47,133 (DotA) seconds
    Tier 3 Sentinel mid to Tier 3 Scourge mid (creepblocks occured, creepblock was bigger in DotA than in Dota 2, corrected it a bit, but don't trust that measurement too much): 40,333 (Dota 2) vs around 42,267-42,767 seconds.

    The differences:
    The DotA map is 5,4% | 4,3% | -0,3% | 5,8% | 4,8% bigger, depending on the data point. The mean value would be 5% if we take out the outlier (which probably has something to do with different map layout... or I failed, although I don't know where something could have gone wrong there).

    possible errors:
    - slightly different map layout can lead to slightly different starting and end points between the Dota games.
    - not exact facing of the hero -> some time needed for turning (tried to make him look towards the lane, so it should be a very minor point)

    ----

    conclusion:
    The Dota 2 map seems to be indeed smaller than the DotA map.
    (The tower spacing at the bottom sentinel lane seems to be wider in Dota 2 compared to DotA)


    effects on gameplay:
    - roaming more effective
    - tp usefulness is bigger the larger the map is (not saying tp is not useful in Dota 2)
    - jungling more effective
    -> balance gets altered, we don't want that as long as DotA and Dota 2 share the same skill and hero value balancing.

    ----

    possible solution:
    I thought of ways to solve the problem without needing to redesign the map in general:
    adjust the length units. So to say scale them by 1/1,05, thats about 0,954. Ofc Valve needs to do many measurements to discover the best factor for this. Maybe they even come across mome more big layout differences like I noticed at the bottom lane tower spacing.

    To make understandable what I mean.
    Instead of 1 length units, heroes now would run 0,954 old length units (but still 1 length unit in the new system). -> Heroes will need longer to reach their destination, thats basically what consistency would dictate.
    Spells that have a range of 100 units would have a range of 95,4 old length units (spells need to be scaled down a bit, but since they are 3d models and not some raster images, that should be no problem).

    To evade the movement of heroes feeling slower and skill aoes feeling smaller, it would be possible to scale them down a bit (4,6% is not much). Same for creeps ofc.


    So what are your thoughts on this?
    Last edited by mindfaQ; 03-16-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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  2. #2
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    So what are your thoughts on this?
    Its good
    to be this hard

    @topic:
    i often experience this inside a base, towers are firing from everywhere and nowhere in base your are invisible.
    so +1

  3. #3
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
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    That much difference is well within error margin/tolerance. If this changes the meta game (to some players), then they should uninstall dota2. Sounds harsh, but true.

    And complaining about meta game when not all heroes are available yet...is kinda dumb.

  4. #4
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    elitist talk right there OP, I would place my faith in Icefrog and Valve rather than "Pro" players opinions.

    Players come and go, dota game does not.

  5. #5
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    A big part of this stems from the improved pathing. DotA times could probably be faster if you do soem perfect manual running

  6. #6
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    @Cocofang: Walking in straight lines is not much of a pathing issue (I chose noncomplicated ways for measurements, so no obstacles where the hero needed to move around etc). If someone can measure the sizes directly via models/program code, that ofc would be perfect.

    @CvP: not when many measurements all give the same results. I agree that 5 might not be enough, but the tendancy hints at it being a systematic difference rather than error margins (which can go in + and -, so mean should be around 0).

    @thanatos_kod: You sound more elitist, discarding an eventually valid point without proper reasoning.

    edit: will use the flying courier for next measurements. pathing shouldn't have influence on direct path.
    Last edited by mindfaQ; 03-17-2012 at 06:10 AM.
    specs for bugreports:
    i5-4200U
    AMD Radeon HD 8750M
    win 7


  7. #7
    Basic Member Amraa's Avatar
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    Well the top left tavern spot is missing also the space with trees behind the fountain is missing, maybe it has something to do with that? the space behind the fountain is only used when pubstomping though.

  8. #8
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    @mindfaq It's not a valid point you are making, just an opinion . I'm saying, take Dota2 as it is and play the game, too much comparison with Dota won't help dota2 .

    They are not using WC3 Engine to build dota2 , its the source engine and a newer one at that. Improvements to the game are unavoidable, I am placing my faith in the developers to do what is right for the game, not on some so called pro players. After all, its only a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs, does not mean that Dota2 has to change based on that.

    If the map is smaller, so be it, lets try new meta game based on that, faster ganks , quicker gameplay why not?

    If its not one's cup of tea then pick what suits you.

  9. #9
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    My stance on this matter can be found in my sig.

    If you want things the way they are in DotA, go play DotA.
    I've never played DotA. I don't care how things were done in DotA. This is Dota 2. This is what I care about.

  10. #10
    Basic Member Amraa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClayMeow View Post
    My stance on this matter can be found in my sig.

    If you want things the way they are in DotA, go play DotA.
    I see what you mean there, but the devs want to make this game as close as possible to dota, so I don't see the reason why they shouldn't be informed about these small differences. Maybe they'll care maybe not, it's up to them not you.

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