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Thread: matchmaking issues

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cre View Post
    I take the exact opposite stance as you.

    Quality matches mean more than (nearly) any queue time. In a game like dota where games are regularly 35-60m, waiting an additional 5+ minutes to get a quality match is far more important and enjoyable. If the games were shorter, something like sc2, 10-15m, I may share your sentiment but considering how much emphasis is put into teamwork and team cohesion in dota and the length of the games, quality opponents and teammates trump all.

    There is NO gain to having a 3m queue if you're going to have to endure 45m of poor quality games. This is completely imbalanced in terms of fun had/time invested.

    I understand there are issues with having such a small playerbase and many of the MM gripes will go away when there are 10x more players online, but to read 'valve' thinks that a faster queue is more meaningful than a quality game is so mindblowing, I'm almost at a loss.

    tl;dr - a fast queue is irrelevent if you have to suffer for 35-60m in a horrible game.
    Your summary does not reflect my thoughts on this matter.

    Right now the average wait time is about 3-4 minutes - if I understand you correctly you would like the wait time to increase 5 minutes to 8-9 minutes on average?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    Your summary does not reflect my thoughts on this matter.

    Right now the average wait time is about 3-4 minutes - if I understand you correctly you would like the wait time to increase 5 minutes to 8-9 minutes on average?
    Sorry if I misrepresented your view, I latched on to a few key words you said and ran with it, my apologies.

    To answer your question, if the matchmaking made more accurate match-ups for better game play? 100% absolutely, I'd take the longer queue.

    Waiting an additional 5 minutes to have (near) guaranteed playable games for 35m-60m is definitely worth it. I'm not sure anyone would disagree. There is no plus side to having a faster queue but worse quality game. Dota games take a long time to play compared to other competitive games (sc2 for example) people open dota and expect to play at least an hour. Being rushed into a bad game with little to no chance to win and dragging out a miserable loss for 50m is NOT worth getting into a game faster.
    We aren't saving anyone's time by having a 5m faster queue, they already invested the ~1hr to play at least 1 game, that 1 game should be as fair and enjoyable as possible. Dota isn't a game where you can just queue up, bang out a game, queue up and grind out the ladder. Being stuck in a game where the players skill range is so varied makes the game an unenjoyable mess for 35m-60m and is about the most helpless and worse feeling in the gaming world. The game couldn't be more dreadful when those situations happen, and it seems to be extremely frequent.

    It also seems as of now (perhaps because of the small playerbase which causes it's own issues) that the mm just tries to average out the teams, or if you're winning to much instead of the skill level of the game increasing (playing better people) you just seem to get worse teammates that the game doesn't really expect you to be able to carry.

    Quoting a section of a post I made earlier states this observations.

    "I find it generally works like SC2 where it would try and match 50/50, the problem with this over sc2 is that it seems to just add awful (or new, not to be rude) people to your games, players you likely cannot carry, (not by playing a carry mind you) which just makes the game play very poor. It's almost as if it's like 'you've been winning a lot lately, here are 3 new/bad players with little to no game knowledge, good luck winning.' Until you're balanced out again.

    I've had huge swings in dota 2, from +50 games over .500 and 60%+ win rate, 20-4 streaks duo queue with my friend, to as low as of now 52% win after losing a TON of games lately. I know it sounds elitist but 95% of my loses are really of low fault of my own and almost directly related to awful, awful teammates. I don't claim to be a professional but I've played a lot of dota1, hon and now dota2 (700 hours since Nov 11th when I got my key). It seems obvious this is the system because the games haven't been harder as I've been winning more, like in sc2, you'll just get stomped by better opponents. This would be understandable, if I had been winning for so long that now my MMR is too high, I'm playing people much better than myself and I'm getting stomped. The game quality has gone wayyy down if anything. Games are almost always decided by which team has the bigger throwers, rather than which team is playing better dota. This is frustrating. "

    Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players. Every game is either a stomping for a win, or a stomping for a loss. I feel as though what seems to be the case lately is if I duo queue with a friend the game gives us really awful teammates, that we have little chance to carry and some how now that game is balanced. Dire has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, Radiant has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, whichever teams 'bad' players are worse generally get slammed. I don't like this system at all and hope it's only a by product of the player base and not valve's intention to have an 'avg' team skill of 3good2bad, 4good1bad, whatever, but rather 10 more or less equally skilled players. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but the system in place now (I know a lot of the qualms I have are with player base) is extremely aggravating.

    I can't understand how 1 game is vs. GoSu/coL pros, HOWDOUGETSLICED, Larry Appletime and other well known players, then the next 3 are people with 100 or less wins who don't know how lanes work or about TP mechanics.


    p.s. i appreciate your response, I love dota and hope for it to be the next big esports (move over sc2!) sorry if anything of this comes off rude, I don't mean it to be, I'm just passionate about dota!

  3. #13
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    Dear EricTams, IceFrog, and the Dota 2 Team,

    I think the algorithms in matchmaking are messed up.
    As op says, we get matched up with inexperienced or new players (i have nothing against them - unless they rage)
    *Just a quick question, was the Skill Level on very start of game actually implemented?
    I was playing solo que, non of my team was in a party *i checked their friend list*
    i got matched up with 3 players who has <10 wins with over 30 pages of game history.
    and one with 300+ (over 70 pages in game history)
    other team wasnt even in party as well and had 200+ wins (over 70 pages in game history)
    Im just saying that matchmaking doesnt really pair us up with our skill level...


    Implement Team Matchmaking already xD.
    Also there will be more regions right?
    Last edited by MikeyBooT12; 03-19-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  4. #14
    I blame the fact that you are able to pick your placement in matchmaking (the Noob, Average, and Advanced when you first start playing).

    There are idiots who thinks they know a lot about the game and chooses the Advanced league and assholes who truly know much about the game but chooses the Noob league to stomp and grind wins.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzianStrider View Post
    I blame the fact that you are able to pick your placement in matchmaking (the Noob, Average, and Advanced when you first start playing).

    There are idiots who thinks they know a lot about the game and chooses the Advanced league and assholes who truly know much about the game but chooses the Noob league to stomp and grind wins.
    this.

  6. #16
    Basic Member BenSkysong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cre View Post
    Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players.
    The bold and underlined words pretty much sums up my experience of Matchmaking recently.
    It's about which team having more bad apples.

    I do believe that mmr brackets exists. During my days of solo queue, I experience poor quality teammates and my wins is always stagnant at +/-3-4.
    After that I gave up solo queue and added players which I've played with who are good.
    Stacked with them and now my wins is +/-20-22.
    Last edited by BenSkysong; 03-19-2012 at 09:01 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cre View Post
    Sorry if I misrepresented your view, I latched on to a few key words you said and ran with it, my apologies.

    To answer your question, if the matchmaking made more accurate match-ups for better game play? 100% absolutely, I'd take the longer queue.

    Waiting an additional 5 minutes to have (near) guaranteed playable games for 35m-60m is definitely worth it. I'm not sure anyone would disagree. There is no plus side to having a faster queue but worse quality game. Dota games take a long time to play compared to other competitive games (sc2 for example) people open dota and expect to play at least an hour. Being rushed into a bad game with little to no chance to win and dragging out a miserable loss for 50m is NOT worth getting into a game faster.
    We aren't saving anyone's time by having a 5m faster queue, they already invested the ~1hr to play at least 1 game, that 1 game should be as fair and enjoyable as possible. Dota isn't a game where you can just queue up, bang out a game, queue up and grind out the ladder. Being stuck in a game where the players skill range is so varied makes the game an unenjoyable mess for 35m-60m and is about the most helpless and worse feeling in the gaming world. The game couldn't be more dreadful when those situations happen, and it seems to be extremely frequent.

    It also seems as of now (perhaps because of the small playerbase which causes it's own issues) that the mm just tries to average out the teams, or if you're winning to much instead of the skill level of the game increasing (playing better people) you just seem to get worse teammates that the game doesn't really expect you to be able to carry.

    Quoting a section of a post I made earlier states this observations.

    "I find it generally works like SC2 where it would try and match 50/50, the problem with this over sc2 is that it seems to just add awful (or new, not to be rude) people to your games, players you likely cannot carry, (not by playing a carry mind you) which just makes the game play very poor. It's almost as if it's like 'you've been winning a lot lately, here are 3 new/bad players with little to no game knowledge, good luck winning.' Until you're balanced out again.

    I've had huge swings in dota 2, from +50 games over .500 and 60%+ win rate, 20-4 streaks duo queue with my friend, to as low as of now 52% win after losing a TON of games lately. I know it sounds elitist but 95% of my loses are really of low fault of my own and almost directly related to awful, awful teammates. I don't claim to be a professional but I've played a lot of dota1, hon and now dota2 (700 hours since Nov 11th when I got my key). It seems obvious this is the system because the games haven't been harder as I've been winning more, like in sc2, you'll just get stomped by better opponents. This would be understandable, if I had been winning for so long that now my MMR is too high, I'm playing people much better than myself and I'm getting stomped. The game quality has gone wayyy down if anything. Games are almost always decided by which team has the bigger throwers, rather than which team is playing better dota. This is frustrating. "

    Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players. Every game is either a stomping for a win, or a stomping for a loss. I feel as though what seems to be the case lately is if I duo queue with a friend the game gives us really awful teammates, that we have little chance to carry and some how now that game is balanced. Dire has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, Radiant has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, whichever teams 'bad' players are worse generally get slammed. I don't like this system at all and hope it's only a by product of the player base and not valve's intention to have an 'avg' team skill of 3good2bad, 4good1bad, whatever, but rather 10 more or less equally skilled players. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but the system in place now (I know a lot of the qualms I have are with player base) is extremely aggravating.

    I can't understand how 1 game is vs. GoSu/coL pros, HOWDOUGETSLICED, Larry Appletime and other well known players, then the next 3 are people with 100 or less wins who don't know how lanes work or about TP mechanics.


    p.s. i appreciate your response, I love dota and hope for it to be the next big esports (move over sc2!) sorry if anything of this comes off rude, I don't mean it to be, I'm just passionate about dota!
    That's ok - misunderstandings happen.

    If you don't mind sharing you should PM me your account name and I'll go back through some of your recent games then we can talk about how balanced they were. This can help us calibrate our perceptions of game quality. I don't want to do this exercise if you rage or give up too early in games since that produces very stompy games. ( I don't know your account name so I'm not trying to insinuate anything

    Anyway - you gave me a big wall of text so here are my responses in no particular order.

    - High skill games are definitely an area that will benefit as we get more players. It's also an area has had issues with match times in the past so I'm sensitive to how long this group needs to wait.

    - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.

    - Building on the previous point, even with good matchmaking there are plenty of things that can go wrong:
    * Being conterpicked or having a bad team comp (overdependence on farm, no heroes that can stop a push, lack of DPS, bad teamfight, etc.)
    * Allowing teammates to lose a lane early
    * Luck
    * Natural variations in individual performance
    * People trying a new hero or strategy

    - We don't enforce a 50-50 win rate (Maybe we should?) instead we always try to make the best match possible. I'm always happy when I see someone with a win rate close to 50% though since it means that we haven't been skewing one way or the other in giving matches that were too hard or too easy. I totally agree with your desire to have fewer stomps though.

    - We don't try to match high skill players with low skill players instead we try to get 10 people that fit together the best. Parties can sometimes create a very big gap in skill on a team though and are generally the reason for anything that seems really wacky. Remember too that people people will always have good games and bad games so that person that seems terrible might just be having an off day instead.

    - The outcome of a games is determined more by the best person on a team rather than the worst player. My assumption was originally the same as yours but I had to change my mind once I saw the stats showing otherwise.

    Cheers,
    Eric

  8. #18
    Basic Member Luffydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.
    This was the Defense final where for some reason, Na'Vi decided to pick AM in the first 2 games and lost by a really big margin on both games, then stomped the next 2 games

    Since Eric is checking out this thread I will share my last game. I've waited about 7 minutes on EU server for this. The 7 wins guy is tyrano

    I have about 510 wins and 460 losses and I got into a game against a guy that only had 7 wins!! only 7!!! But it didn't matter since he was a good player. The problem was with my own team... a Russian-Solo-Mid-Please-Mirana who just fed and ended the game 0-8-0, and a guy that last picked Pudge to go solo long lane (obviously ended with a bad score...about 2-9-0). If the machmaking took the 7 wins guy for a noob and decided to put more noobs on my team to compensate, I believe it acted the wrong way

    This is the game if you want to check it out


    Also a question, how many brackets are in the high skill matches? Because I can queue at the same time as friends that are good players... but they get matched against famous players and get lots of viewers, but I get stuck and get bad players when I queue at the same time. And when I check all my games are high skill.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Luffydude; 03-20-2012 at 11:33 AM.

    Simple and obvious things that should get fixed/added asap: SCOREBOARD, Ingame friend list, Different Ping for Roshan, Add Notes to Players, Accept Button while tabbed

  9. #19
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    Actually I believe that Tyrano and Haiko are pros - anyone know if they are playing on an official team?

    Just curious - was there a party on your side?

  10. #20
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    no idea, but googling "tyrano dota" comes up with a bunch of old DotA maphacks, lol

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