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Thread: matchmaking issues

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talesavo View Post
    Tyrano is a high MMR HoN player.
    Are you thinking of Tarano?

  2. #32
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    I've noticed the same thing recently. Sometimes I get games where my team is completely stomped, and games where my team completely stomps, but I didn't really think about it's because of the matchmaking system. I've had players better than me and worse than me in all my games, and assumed it's the same for just about everyone.

    The thing is that you can't trust a player to guess his own skill level. If he's owning newbies without him knowing they are newbies, he could think of himself as the greatest player on Earth. Match him against better players, and he'll have a 0-10 win streak. I had the same experience when I started playing on Dotalicious-Gaming after 2-3 years of Garena. To quote someone, "I was being GG'd all over the map". And how do you figure out a player's skill level? Win percentage? Not enough. Number of heroes played? Not enough. Last hits/denies? Not enough. Kills/deaths? Not enough. I think a clear easy-to-calculate formula of more of these variables is necessary, and I really liked the way Dotalicious handled it. Players are split in skill levels, which have clear requirements. For example, Skill Level 2 needs: at least 50 games, a win rate of at least 48%, less than 1 penalty per 100 games (penalties are given for leaving/ruining games/breaking rules), and ranked in the top 17% of all players. Rank is just the ELO rank corresponding to the player: you start with 1000, and gain more as you win games (you gain even more if you're matched against players with higher ELO), and lose more as you lose games. I think this is a good system, and IMHO it works pretty good. But the key factor (and I can't emphasize this enough) is that a player pays a small price (not money, but a small percentage from his rank) to play with/against players that are lower than him in skill levels. This discourages pub stomps, which happen a lot in Dota 2 right now. The way I see things, Dota 2 needs a similar system. Because this leads to the game having lots of beginners, and it's no fun to the enemy team being destroyed by such a stack. I don't know how you could implement this, but being placed in the low priority pool until the next game seems decent to me.

    tl;dr: as a pro stomping a newbie game, you need to pay a small price; my idea: be placed in the low priority pool until the next game. You gave 5 people a bad game, you get a bad game.

    Edit: There is a TyranO that used to make maphacks for DotA.
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  3. #33
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    There's nothing wrong with stomps. Stomps are legitimate wins. You shouldn't be punished by playing too good, specially if you can't decide with against whom you play.
    Even considering the initial selection, people will make mistakes in self-evaluating. The real issue at hand is the compromise between search times and search ranges given the small player base. To not punish the extremes(too high or too low MMR), i think they need a special case handle instead of the unstable behaviour of the most common ranges.

  4. #34
    I get really bad players sometimes, and all my games are rated high (I do this by filtering "High" level games and typing my name in, comes out all of my recent games are that, which leads me to conclude Im in the High tier).

    Anyway. It doesn't really matter where I am. Since, on my team, I recently got a PotM that goes mid, doesn't skill leap, fails horribly, and a viper that got power treads after the 35 minute mark. Mirana was not far behind, in fact I don't think she ever got past Stick+tier 2 boots.

    It's really sad to be honest. I ended up being 11-2 as windrunner but to no avail - we already had 2 feeders that spoon fed everyone on the enemy team.

  5. #35
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    @ericTams: i just wanted to say i also agree, i feel like recently my games are either a complete stomp for the other team or a complete stomp for my team. i was having alot of really close exciting games back in december/early january, but recently its always one way or the other. The skill gap is just ridiculous, like one game i first picked invoker, because when i get on a losing streak i have to make something happen, and invoker is the most versatile hero in the pool in my opinion. we then got i think a faceless void for bot ( was on radiant ) and i think a darkseer in the jungle or an axe i forget, and the last two heroes pick a puck and a sniper... -_-... for the suicide lane... seriously... also, puck waited till after the first wave to pick, and he didn't buy a courier either, so i was solo mid against zeus, i was out farming him for the first few minutes, had something like 15 denies, and maybe only 12 cs or so after 4 waves, not that great, but not that bad either considering i was trying to delay his bottle as much as i could. and when my boots came up, and no courier, i couldn't beat him to the rune, no support came down to fight him for it either. so he finished his bottle, and got every single rune, and after about 3 double damage/haste/regen runes, he had me so low on hp i had to sit in the trees with 3 quas orbs tryign to regen up, but i couldn't even get a salve from base with no courier, so it takes more then 2 minutes to regen, so zeus would just get each rune. Puck and sniper then feed zeus a double kill top after i said in voice chat zeus going top with rune, pinged it, typed it in team chat, and even drew a giant arrow on the river on the minimap, and they still didn't b.

    How on earth am i getting matched with players that consistently dont know how to play, i can hold my own in NA-DL against players from coL, Water, IG, EG, GDT etc etc, but my matchmaking rating is very very close to 50% because either i win us the game 1v5 or we lose. I very rarely get ( maybe 1 / 20 games ) get another player on my team that actually performs better then i do and carries us.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vininim View Post
    There's nothing wrong with stomps. Stomps are legitimate wins. You shouldn't be punished by playing too good, specially if you can't decide with against whom you play.
    I agree, but I'm talking about queuing with low-skilled players.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vininim View Post
    There's nothing wrong with stomps. Stomps are legitimate wins. You shouldn't be punished by playing too good, specially if you can't decide with against whom you play.
    Even considering the initial selection, people will make mistakes in self-evaluating. The real issue at hand is the compromise between search times and search ranges given the small player base. To not punish the extremes(too high or too low MMR), i think they need a special case handle instead of the unstable behaviour of the most common ranges.
    As long as we're on the subject, stomps usually happen with a pre-made party of players against a bunch of pubs/lesser pre-mades. Is there anything in place to perhaps add however much skill rating to the pre-made team? I haven't had that many stomp games but i have had a few games where the enemy team was tri-laning and obviously showing signs of advanced cooperation. Meanwhile, my team was just me and my friend who queues with me and a bunch of randoms AFAIK. It's games like that when i wish for a concede function...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    That's ok - misunderstandings happen.

    If you don't mind sharing you should PM me your account name and I'll go back through some of your recent games then we can talk about how balanced they were. This can help us calibrate our perceptions of game quality. I don't want to do this exercise if you rage or give up too early in games since that produces very stompy games. ( I don't know your account name so I'm not trying to insinuate anything

    Anyway - you gave me a big wall of text so here are my responses in no particular order.

    - High skill games are definitely an area that will benefit as we get more players. It's also an area has had issues with match times in the past so I'm sensitive to how long this group needs to wait.

    - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.

    - Building on the previous point, even with good matchmaking there are plenty of things that can go wrong:
    * Being conterpicked or having a bad team comp (overdependence on farm, no heroes that can stop a push, lack of DPS, bad teamfight, etc.)
    * Allowing teammates to lose a lane early
    * Luck
    * Natural variations in individual performance
    * People trying a new hero or strategy

    - We don't enforce a 50-50 win rate (Maybe we should?) instead we always try to make the best match possible. I'm always happy when I see someone with a win rate close to 50% though since it means that we haven't been skewing one way or the other in giving matches that were too hard or too easy. I totally agree with your desire to have fewer stomps though.

    - We don't try to match high skill players with low skill players instead we try to get 10 people that fit together the best. Parties can sometimes create a very big gap in skill on a team though and are generally the reason for anything that seems really wacky. Remember too that people people will always have good games and bad games so that person that seems terrible might just be having an off day instead.

    - The outcome of a games is determined more by the best person on a team rather than the worst player. My assumption was originally the same as yours but I had to change my mind once I saw the stats showing otherwise.

    Cheers,
    Eric
    Then why not implement an ELO system, or a rank like in Heroes of Newerth, where you can see a player ladder, and match people by their skills AND their W/L radio, since the challenge will always be mantain or raise that number

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkStylaZz View Post
    Then why not implement an ELO system, or a rank like in Heroes of Newerth, where you can see a player ladder, and match people by their skills AND their W/L radio, since the challenge will always be mantain or raise that number
    AFAIK, there is an ELO system in place. You used to be able to access your current ranking via the console, but that was removed quickly after it was found out.

    I've noticed that if I get a quick match, I can usually expect a pretty decent game. If it takes a bit longer to match, and the Search Range bar fills up, I can expect to have extremely low-skilled players on my team. I'd rather wait another couple of minutes with a lower search range to get a more even match than get matched up with low tier players.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luffydude View Post
    I don't think so, Tyrano has only 7 wins and Haiko spend half the game saying we suck. I don't believe pros become so proud of themselves by beating up feeders

    Also I don't think there was a party on our side since Sven went top with morph instead of going with the guy above him (mirana) or the guy below him (pudge)

    and I think you missed
    they maybe came from dota 1 with 7 wins only

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