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  1. #1
    Basic Member Takomancer's Avatar
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    matchmaking issues

    I have 64 wins 48 losses right now (23-9 w/l top hero), and I get matched with people who have below 10 games won. Tiny didn't know what to build, so he asked what to build, we had a bloodseeker that got blademail as his first item. Clearly they had no clue what was going on in the game, at the same time there is this one guy who has 300+ wins, an obvious veteran to dota 2. I'm having a difficult time understanding how we are being matched with these people?

    edited update: currently 142-116 Still seeing the same issue where complete beginners being matched or played against
    Last edited by Takomancer; 04-02-2012 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #2
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    probably the queuing time is a little bit too long,
    and the system decided to extend the search range of player levels

  3. #3
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    Be happy, that tiny asks you what he should build.

    Also i cant see, why blademail is a bad item on bloodseeker, it has great synergies with all of his spells. Maybe its not the best first item, but that would depend on the heroes in the game.
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    Was the player with 300 wins partied with the two new players? A lot of the weirdness happens because people make crazy parties - a very common instance being an experienced player teaching his friends how to play.

    Typically the trade off in matchmaking is wait time versus match quality. We could always try and slow down the match time in an attempt to provide higher accuracy matches but this will get better naturally as we add more players so I'd rather keep match times snappy.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    Typically the trade off in matchmaking is wait time versus match quality.
    I have a question about this. Does longer waiting time cause actually BETTER quality?
    Because the game shows the "Search Range" indicator, which implies that the quality becomes worse the longer you have to wait :<

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhox View Post
    I have a question about this. Does longer waiting time cause actually BETTER quality?
    Because the game shows the "Search Range" indicator, which implies that the quality becomes worse the longer you have to wait :<
    I think it might be better to think about it in the general sense.

    Independent of the game or MM system - If you have more people to choose from you should be able to create a better match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhox View Post
    I have a question about this. Does longer waiting time cause actually BETTER quality?
    Because the game shows the "Search Range" indicator, which implies that the quality becomes worse the longer you have to wait :<
    If someone, who is a perfect match starts his search, while your bar is maxed out. Why wouldnt he be matched with you?
    Search Range just raises the possibility for worse matches (the extreme being: a noob+a expert vs 2 mediocre players), but doesnt discard good matches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    Was the player with 300 wins partied with the two new players? A lot of the weirdness happens because people make crazy parties - a very common instance being an experienced player teaching his friends how to play.

    Typically the trade off in matchmaking is wait time versus match quality. We could always try and slow down the match time in an attempt to provide higher accuracy matches but this will get better naturally as we add more players so I'd rather keep match times snappy.
    I take the exact opposite stance as you.

    Quality matches mean more than (nearly) any queue time. In a game like dota where games are regularly 35-60m, waiting an additional 5+ minutes to get a quality match is far more important and enjoyable. If the games were shorter, something like sc2, 10-15m, I may share your sentiment but considering how much emphasis is put into teamwork and team cohesion in dota and the length of the games, quality opponents and teammates trump all.

    There is NO gain to having a 3m queue if you're going to have to endure 45m of poor quality games. This is completely imbalanced in terms of fun had/time invested.

    I understand there are issues with having such a small playerbase and many of the MM gripes will go away when there are 10x more players online, but to read 'valve' thinks that a faster queue is more meaningful than a quality game is so mindblowing, I'm almost at a loss.

    tl;dr - a fast queue is irrelevent if you have to suffer for 35-60m in a horrible game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cre View Post
    I take the exact opposite stance as you.

    Quality matches mean more than (nearly) any queue time. In a game like dota where games are regularly 35-60m, waiting an additional 5+ minutes to get a quality match is far more important and enjoyable. If the games were shorter, something like sc2, 10-15m, I may share your sentiment but considering how much emphasis is put into teamwork and team cohesion in dota and the length of the games, quality opponents and teammates trump all.

    There is NO gain to having a 3m queue if you're going to have to endure 45m of poor quality games. This is completely imbalanced in terms of fun had/time invested.

    I understand there are issues with having such a small playerbase and many of the MM gripes will go away when there are 10x more players online, but to read 'valve' thinks that a faster queue is more meaningful than a quality game is so mindblowing, I'm almost at a loss.

    tl;dr - a fast queue is irrelevent if you have to suffer for 35-60m in a horrible game.
    Your summary does not reflect my thoughts on this matter.

    Right now the average wait time is about 3-4 minutes - if I understand you correctly you would like the wait time to increase 5 minutes to 8-9 minutes on average?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTams View Post
    Your summary does not reflect my thoughts on this matter.

    Right now the average wait time is about 3-4 minutes - if I understand you correctly you would like the wait time to increase 5 minutes to 8-9 minutes on average?
    Sorry if I misrepresented your view, I latched on to a few key words you said and ran with it, my apologies.

    To answer your question, if the matchmaking made more accurate match-ups for better game play? 100% absolutely, I'd take the longer queue.

    Waiting an additional 5 minutes to have (near) guaranteed playable games for 35m-60m is definitely worth it. I'm not sure anyone would disagree. There is no plus side to having a faster queue but worse quality game. Dota games take a long time to play compared to other competitive games (sc2 for example) people open dota and expect to play at least an hour. Being rushed into a bad game with little to no chance to win and dragging out a miserable loss for 50m is NOT worth getting into a game faster.
    We aren't saving anyone's time by having a 5m faster queue, they already invested the ~1hr to play at least 1 game, that 1 game should be as fair and enjoyable as possible. Dota isn't a game where you can just queue up, bang out a game, queue up and grind out the ladder. Being stuck in a game where the players skill range is so varied makes the game an unenjoyable mess for 35m-60m and is about the most helpless and worse feeling in the gaming world. The game couldn't be more dreadful when those situations happen, and it seems to be extremely frequent.

    It also seems as of now (perhaps because of the small playerbase which causes it's own issues) that the mm just tries to average out the teams, or if you're winning to much instead of the skill level of the game increasing (playing better people) you just seem to get worse teammates that the game doesn't really expect you to be able to carry.

    Quoting a section of a post I made earlier states this observations.

    "I find it generally works like SC2 where it would try and match 50/50, the problem with this over sc2 is that it seems to just add awful (or new, not to be rude) people to your games, players you likely cannot carry, (not by playing a carry mind you) which just makes the game play very poor. It's almost as if it's like 'you've been winning a lot lately, here are 3 new/bad players with little to no game knowledge, good luck winning.' Until you're balanced out again.

    I've had huge swings in dota 2, from +50 games over .500 and 60%+ win rate, 20-4 streaks duo queue with my friend, to as low as of now 52% win after losing a TON of games lately. I know it sounds elitist but 95% of my loses are really of low fault of my own and almost directly related to awful, awful teammates. I don't claim to be a professional but I've played a lot of dota1, hon and now dota2 (700 hours since Nov 11th when I got my key). It seems obvious this is the system because the games haven't been harder as I've been winning more, like in sc2, you'll just get stomped by better opponents. This would be understandable, if I had been winning for so long that now my MMR is too high, I'm playing people much better than myself and I'm getting stomped. The game quality has gone wayyy down if anything. Games are almost always decided by which team has the bigger throwers, rather than which team is playing better dota. This is frustrating. "

    Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players. Every game is either a stomping for a win, or a stomping for a loss. I feel as though what seems to be the case lately is if I duo queue with a friend the game gives us really awful teammates, that we have little chance to carry and some how now that game is balanced. Dire has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, Radiant has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, whichever teams 'bad' players are worse generally get slammed. I don't like this system at all and hope it's only a by product of the player base and not valve's intention to have an 'avg' team skill of 3good2bad, 4good1bad, whatever, but rather 10 more or less equally skilled players. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but the system in place now (I know a lot of the qualms I have are with player base) is extremely aggravating.

    I can't understand how 1 game is vs. GoSu/coL pros, HOWDOUGETSLICED, Larry Appletime and other well known players, then the next 3 are people with 100 or less wins who don't know how lanes work or about TP mechanics.


    p.s. i appreciate your response, I love dota and hope for it to be the next big esports (move over sc2!) sorry if anything of this comes off rude, I don't mean it to be, I'm just passionate about dota!

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