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Thread: [Suggestion] Camera perspective for Dire

  1. #1
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    Jan 2017

    Post [Suggestion] Flipped camera perspective for Dire

    There has been some discussion about wether the fixed camera perspective provides an advantage for Radiant, and a disadvantage for Dire. Concerns were based on suspiciously high winrate for Radiant side on the new 7.00 map.

    Since I may be a bit biased, some arguments in this post will maybe be biased as well (but I will try to list the most common arguments (in my opinion) for and against new perspective for Dire first, and then add my input on it further down).

    Some Dire perspective previews I made (with flipped minimap):

    Related Links:

    Is this right? +7% winrate on all heroes if they are on radiant? Wtf is that advantage? [title] (first post I came across)
    Current month stats from Dotabuff.
    Cyborgmatt's tweet (with screenshots) + 5k+ bracket monthly stats attachment.
    CyborgMatt offers a possible solution to the Dire disadvantage. [title]
    Radiant advantage has nothing to do with camera perspective boys. [title]

    Instructions for if you want to have dire base in the bottom left corner [title] (test the perspective out for yourself in-game)

    Since I have a suspicion the majority of you are against the new "forced" perspective (I won't cover arguments for/against optional perspective here), we'll start with arguments against it, and then I will go point by point addressing these concerns and add more "for it" arguments (if you have new/missed by me arguments, please post below and I will try to add them).

    Against new perspective:

    1. I'm really sceptical to these claims. The perspective may play a role, but much less than some have suggested. Radiant has always had map advantages, and it's carried over to the new map (maybe with even more additions). And Dire Rosh advantage has been removed.

    2. Alright, maybe there really is a perspective advantage/disadvantage, but why can't we just neutralize it with changes to the map instead?

    3. It's just too confusing. My brain will have a hard time adjusting. It's like having to learn two different maps.

    4. The map is not designed to be played from both perspectives, and some things are blocked or/and just don't look right.

    5. What is this madness? Dota will no longer be Dota if we allow to change the perspective!

    6. (...) (post your concerns/nuances below, I will try to add them here)

    Addressing "against" concerns/for arguments:

    1. I will just link a comment by travman064 where he talks about stats from symmetrical maps in League of Legends favoring "Radiant" perspective 55/45, and how this issue can be solved. I'm only familiar with these experiments through reddit comments, and have not investigated further. But if they are correct, I think we should at least consider dual perspective for Dota as a potential outcome.

    2. This answer will probably be on the subjective side for most. I really dislike the idea of having potentially exploitable advantages on either side of the map, just to balance out the imbalanced perspective. At least for me personally, it's not an aesthetic or attractive solution for this game; even if advantages are not exploitable.

    3. Here I will go out on a limb and say that "it's just in your head". I believe the adjustment period will be much shorter than most people think right now. First argument for this claim is the very similar outcries with every major map update. I actually think the new perspective will enrich Dota, and will not be a limiting factor. I think seeing things from a new perspective will give your brain more food for thought, it will help you contextualize the map a lot better, with the outcome of you becoming a better player in the end. I want to as well mention that FPS games can be compared to the dual perspective idea, since they're (how I see it) literally proof that your brain can function just as well from opposite sides of an asymmetrical map. (more further down)

    4. I think this is an issue that can easily be overcome. I did test the perspective in lobby and did not find any outstandingly bad spots, but some things can definitely be improved, and I'm sure won't be a struggle to improve if Valve so decides.

    5. This is of course something everyone has a personal opinion on, and my address can only be a subjective one. I personally don't think the core of Dota itself will change just because of the perspective change. It will become slightly different, and not the exact imprint most people have come to know it to be, but that kind of happens with every change, especially with the most recent. Seeing how the community has handled it, I think if implemented in the right way, will be just as welcome as any other change. If something holds it's appeal from multiple perspectives, doesn't it make it more aesthetic?

    For new perspective:

    1. First I want to show more clearly the increased field of vision dominantly scouting over the Dire side, or the larger overview of terrain where a Dire hero more likely than not will be in the course of a game, compared with where a Radiant hero would be. Posted by Jerk_offlane here, screens here:

    2. I think for most people and players it's far more intuitive and natural to have what's closest to yourself being down and the largest, and the furthest being more up and smaller. But this is of course not the starting point of Dire heroes, that have to push somewhat counter-intuitively from right to left, from up to down, to win the game.

    3. The new perspective/rotating possibility will diversify casting/spectating games, even more so when camera is zoomed out a bit. Gives new exciting angles to the game to enjoy. I think there are only positive sides to this minus initial confusion.

    4. (...) (post your arguments/nuances below, I will try to add them here)

    Some curiousities I've discovered (but not really explored fully). Just pasting a portion of a comment I made some days ago (that I've now edited a lot):

    I realized the sample size is very poor. This next part can be skipped.

    I checked pub winrates for EG and OG players, and only one player stands out, Sumail, having 1.09% more winrate on Dire versus Radiant (after checking with more teams, one (two if you count MP's +0.38% Dire winrate) another player has a more positive Dire winrate compared to Radiant, wings.bLink with a whole +5.42% difference!). The rest of the players range from ~1.5% to ~4% more wins on Radiant compared to Dire (all numbers here are subtraction differences, not relative improvements). It could mean Sumail (and definitely bLink) has a unique perspective on the game/playstyle (or utilizes a Dire advantage more than others), and still proves that Radiant has an advantage for most players. For example I've seen Sumail having camera shift down and left, while his hero is almost out of sight in the upper right corner attacking something else, giving Sumail more information about patches of map closer to Radiant side.

    Now thinking more about it, Sumail does come from a culture where text is written and read from right to left. Has this somehow influenced his thinking process, making it more intuitive for him to be on the right side and to push from right to left? Only speculations of course.

    I think maybe the biggest factor that some players have better winrate on Dire is the higher frequency/smarter checking of the minimap; since the limited vision of the Radiant side of the map on main display cannot be trusted as much playing Dire, compared to more visible terrain from the Dire side when playing Radiant. Players' winrate on dotabuff is mixed with their tournament matches, the match sample is not the greatest, and those players just might have exploited a Dire advantage more than others, because it suites their playstyle more (for example Roshan favoring Dire in 6.88). So all I assume about professional players in this last segment is not grounded in any hard facts.

    But we can at least say almost for sure that perspective advantage for Radiant does exist (given other things I brought up above), and it must mostly affect lower skilled players or players who don't utilize their minimap/main map in a good way.

    TL;DR: We have good reasons to consider implementing flipped Dire perspective.
    Last edited by #144; 02-02-2017 at 07:35 AM. Reason: changed post icon, minor edit, changed title, edited more, major edits

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