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Thread: Official Matchmaking Feedback Thread

  1. #1941
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaochenese View Post
    I hope you know that the one sided match thread exists for that reason.
    Ok let's go to that thread and do the same search.

    Hmm, 2 posts, no IDs. What a surprise.

    When am I going to see some of these hundreds of games with Korthac + 4 terrible players on his team? I mean all he has to do is log on and grab a single ID, chances are it will be a bad game considering how:
    Quote Originally Posted by Korthac View Post
    Every game I am given garbage teammates
    Just to point out, all Korthac posts is

    a) Give us stats.
    b) Matchmaking keeps screwing me

    And when I say:

    a) Show us your stats
    b) Show us your matchmaking

    He says no.
    Last edited by Rugz; 10-05-2012 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #1942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugz View Post
    Ok let's go to that thread and do the same search.

    Hmm, 2 posts, no IDs. What a surprise.

    When am I going to see some of these hundreds of games with Korthac + 4 terrible players on his team? I mean all he has to do is log on and grab a single ID, chances are it will be a bad game considering how:


    Just to point out, all Korthac posts is

    a) Give us stats.
    b) Matchmaking keeps screwing me

    And when I say:

    a) Show us your stats
    b) Show us your matchmaking

    He says no.
    whats the point in giving u ones profile

    u will take out one game

    watch only him

    even if his team went 0:30 and hes 4:2 u will say haha u died like a fag tping into that and u think ur good?

    ??????
    profit for u


    heres one ID for u very high mm ofc

    https://dotabuff.com/matches/46613992

    plz tell me how bad i was and that i was as bad as my feeding scrub teammates :T

  3. #1943
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    Rugz, the issue with MM becomes obvious when a player improves and starts winning more than he loses. This should generally raise his rank, and put him in games with 9 better players. What dota 2 MM does, however, is put him with 4 subpar allies vs 5 competent players to drop his win rate back down to 50%.

    Recently, I went on a streak where I was winning 70%+ of my games. I expected this to raise my rank and thus put me in games with better players. Instead, I found newbie/feeding allies vs competent players, and my win streak was immediately followed by a loss streak. Not only was my 50% win rate achieved in an entirely unfair manner, but this sort of MM also means that progression, as a solo queuer, is exceedingly hard.

    I'll post two screenshots, one representing my win streak, the other my loss streak. Keep in mind that dotabuff displays a set 20 games per page, so while these screenshots won't give you my exact win and loss %ages over my streaks, they still explicate the concept:

    streaks.jpg

    You can see these screenshots show me going 14-6, then 6-14. 50% win rate achieved. I've already posted a screenshot of the scoreboard of one of my games a few pages prior. In case you're too lazy to look, I was a 14-3 sniper with 470gpm (highest of all 10 players), with 410 LHs in a 65 minute game. The mid on my team was a broodmother who went 2-19 with 77 LHs in 65 minutes. We also had a Sven who went 2-20-4, thus taking part in a grand total of 6 ganks out of 46. The enemy team, on the other hand, had positive kdrs and decent cs across the board, as well as a high and even no of assists, thus confirming their coordinated play.

    As long as a player is stable in terms of his skill, the flaws of Dota2's MM aren't patently revealed. You'll have some one sided losses, some one sided wins, and some close games, which is what we can expect from MM in any game (HoN/LoL/SC2). The problem becomes very apparent, though, when your game improves and your skill level increases. Since you have outgrown the players at your current rank in terms of skill, this must mean your win rate will shoot above 50%. A decent match making system must allow this, and must put you in games with 9 better players. Eventually, you will reach a point where you are again evenly matched. At this point in time, your win rate, at that rank, will automatically stabilize back to 50%. There is nothing artificial about this, you progress in rank as you improve, and you stop progressing when you meet players similar to you in skill. To summarize, a good MM system prioritizes players reaching their deserved skill rank above all else, and if this is achieved, a 50% win rate will be automatically realized.

    The problem with dota 2, however, seems to be that it prioritizes the achievement of a 50% win rate over anything else. This means that as you improve and become better than your peers at a given rank and start winning more, the dota 2 MM system jumps into action to bring your win rate back down to 50%. This is achieved by putting you in games vs competent players with sub par allies, thus resulting in extremely frustrating and one sided losses. This also makes it incredibly hard for solo queuers to progress to their true rank within a reasonable time frame.

    Let me talk about HoNs MM a bit. The starting rank for a new player is 1500. The lowest possible rank is 1000, and the highest that is generally achieved by progamers is around 2100. Lets suppose I start playing HoN for the first time, ie 1500. For a certain amount of time, I'm going to stay somewhere in the 1300-1500 bracket (which is the case with most new players). Every game I will be matched with people within the same skill range. HoN has a maximum rank range for each game, I believe this is 150 or 200, meaning that the highest ranked player in a game cant be more than 150-200 points higher than the lowest ranked player. This ensures games that are reasonably and consistently balanced, very, very few are one sided stomps.

    Back in HoN, when I improved my game, my rank started climbing. When I hit 1600, I was put in games with 9 other players around 1600. When I hit 1700, I get put into games with 9 other players who were around 1700. If I were to improve further, I would win more than 50% of my games with 9 other 1700 players, and thus my rank would continue to rise. Eventually I would reach my true ladder rank, and at that particular rank, my win rate would stabilize to 50%.

    In dota2, if I start winning more than I lose at 1500, because I have improved my game, when I hit 1700, the MM system wants to immediately bring my win rate back down to 50%. This is achieved by putting me in a game against 5 1700 players, but with 4 1300 players as allies. This will continue to happen until my win rate has dropped down to an accepted level.

    That HoN, LoL, and SC2 have far superior MM systems in place is obvious just by the general sentiment on their forums. There are very, very few people who complain about MM on the forums of these games, and when they do, pretty much everyone disagrees. On these forums, however, there have been a multitude of threads complaining about the MM system. We have 3 stickied threads for MM feedback, this current one with almost 200 pages of complaints. There have been plenty of screenshots posted, if you're interested in looking. That such a large part of the community is complaining about MM makes it evident that problems Do exist.

  4. #1944
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeanLuc View Post
    Rugz, the issue with MM becomes obvious when a player improves and starts winning more than he loses. This should generally raise his rank, and put him in games with 9 better players. What dota 2 MM does, however, is put him with 4 subpar allies vs 5 competent players to drop his win rate back down to 50%.

    Recently, I went on a streak where I was winning 70%+ of my games. I expected this to raise my rank and thus put me in games with better players. Instead, I found newbie/feeding allies vs competent players, and my win streak was immediately followed by a loss streak. Not only was my 50% win rate achieved in an entirely unfair manner, but this sort of MM also means that progression, as a solo queuer, is exceedingly hard.

    I'll post two screenshots, one representing my win streak, the other my loss streak. Keep in mind that dotabuff displays a set 20 games per page, so while these screenshots won't give you my exact win and loss %ages over my streaks, they still explicate the concept:

    streaks.jpg

    You can see these screenshots show me going 14-6, then 6-14. 50% win rate achieved. I've already posted a screenshot of the scoreboard of one of my games a few pages prior. In case you're too lazy to look, I was a 14-3 sniper with 470gpm (highest of all 10 players), with 410 LHs in a 65 minute game. The mid on my team was a broodmother who went 2-19 with 77 LHs in 65 minutes. We also had a Sven who went 2-20-4, thus taking part in a grand total of 6 ganks out of 46. The enemy team, on the other hand, had positive kdrs and decent cs across the board, as well as a high and even no of assists, thus confirming their coordinated play.

    As long as a player is stable in terms of his skill, the flaws of Dota2's MM aren't patently revealed. You'll have some one sided losses, some one sided wins, and some close games, which is what we can expect from MM in any game (HoN/LoL/SC2). The problem becomes very apparent, though, when your game improves and your skill level increases. Since you have outgrown the players at your current rank in terms of skill, this must mean your win rate will shoot above 50%. A decent match making system must allow this, and must put you in games with 9 better players. Eventually, you will reach a point where you are again evenly matched. At this point in time, your win rate, at that rank, will automatically stabilize back to 50%. There is nothing artificial about this, you progress in rank as you improve, and you stop progressing when you meet players similar to you in skill. To summarize, a good MM system prioritizes players reaching their deserved skill rank above all else, and if this is achieved, a 50% win rate will be automatically realized.

    The problem with dota 2, however, seems to be that it prioritizes the achievement of a 50% win rate over anything else. This means that as you improve and become better than your peers at a given rank and start winning more, the dota 2 MM system jumps into action to bring your win rate back down to 50%. This is achieved by putting you in games vs competent players with sub par allies, thus resulting in extremely frustrating and one sided losses. This also makes it incredibly hard for solo queuers to progress to their true rank within a reasonable time frame.

    Let me talk about HoNs MM a bit. The starting rank for a new player is 1500. The lowest possible rank is 1000, and the highest that is generally achieved by progamers is around 2100. Lets suppose I start playing HoN for the first time, ie 1500. For a certain amount of time, I'm going to stay somewhere in the 1300-1500 bracket (which is the case with most new players). Every game I will be matched with people within the same skill range. HoN has a maximum rank range for each game, I believe this is 150 or 200, meaning that the highest ranked player in a game cant be more than 150-200 points higher than the lowest ranked player. This ensures games that are reasonably and consistently balanced, very, very few are one sided stomps.

    Back in HoN, when I improved my game, my rank started climbing. When I hit 1600, I was put in games with 9 other players around 1600. When I hit 1700, I get put into games with 9 other players who were around 1700. If I were to improve further, I would win more than 50% of my games with 9 other 1700 players, and thus my rank would continue to rise. Eventually I would reach my true ladder rank, and at that particular rank, my win rate would stabilize to 50%.

    In dota2, if I start winning more than I lose at 1500, because I have improved my game, when I hit 1700, the MM system wants to immediately bring my win rate back down to 50%. This is achieved by putting me in a game against 5 1700 players, but with 4 1300 players as allies. This will continue to happen until my win rate has dropped down to an accepted level.

    That HoN, LoL, and SC2 have far superior MM systems in place is obvious just by the general sentiment on their forums. There are very, very few people who complain about MM on the forums of these games, and when they do, pretty much everyone disagrees. On these forums, however, there have been a multitude of threads complaining about the MM system. We have 3 stickied threads for MM feedback, this current one with almost 200 pages of complaints. There have been plenty of screenshots posted, if you're interested in looking. That such a large part of the community is complaining about MM makes it evident that problems Do exist.
    And that is fine, valid screenshots supporting your point. Now, whether 20 games is enough to constitute a decent sample to analyze and critique the matchmaking is another issue. One I have no interest in. The only issue I take in this thread is one specific person making outlandish claims and generally disrupting the proper collection of data with hysterical nonsense. It was the same in the old PRNG threads 'Well I just got quad bashed by Void so it's broken' etc, accomplishing nothing but interrupting the people posting 10000 hit damage logs of Slardar for analysis.

    I want him to either support his claim or shut up, mainly because he leaks into other threads with the same useless posts and has it plastered all over his signature.

    For what it's worth, I don't like the current system either (although I automatically take the opposite side of an argument when someone refuses to validate their position), but if I look at a long list of my own games, while it does tend to go quite 'streaky', over a period I actually observe a pretty equal number of stomps given/received. Now ideally I would like both numbers to tend to zero, but that is a factor of the size of the player pool, and for now, while there are still bugs in the game that can only be collected through mass playing, I am content to settle for the wild swings in games in return for acceptable queue times.

    HoN definitely had a lot going for it in terms of its ranking system, but it was still subject to the same issues, all be it less frequent, a 1800 player sitting at +0 / -1 in a 1500 average game was not unheard of, even when queueing alone.
    Last edited by Rugz; 10-05-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #1945
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    im 56%+ win at ~1050 games and i keep getting paired up with the biggest naps in -cm very high pool, its incredible what trash this mm giving you to smash ya back downto 50%.

    the main problem are those guys with around ~100 games overall and even winratio like me. when you have a new dota account you play against the biggest noobs, even my friend who never played any dota like game has >50% win within his first 100 games. They have good % but play like trash. And fix the cap system, i cant see why a guy with 100games and 50% win gets cap spot over me with >1000 games.

  6. #1946
    Just came here to say im done playing Dota 2 until you can provide a real matchmaking and not this pathethic excuse of random games. You should talk with S2 , theyr game is bad yes but theyr matchmaking is waaaaaay superior than ur garbage MM. You wont fix it anyway , you care about money only. So I wont invest more money from now on until you improve our gameplay experience. Starcraft 2 here I come again.

  7. #1947
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaSpecialist View Post
    Just came here to say im done playing Dota 2 until you can provide a real matchmaking and not this pathethic excuse of random games. You should talk with S2 , theyr game is bad yes but theyr matchmaking is waaaaaay superior than ur garbage MM. You wont fix it anyway , you care about money only. So I wont invest more money from now on until you improve our gameplay experience. Starcraft 2 here I come again.
    Then you will be gone for a while...
    Also, if more people were like you, we surely would get better m-m faster, because at the moment they still play even though it's flawed, and it completely satisfies Valve(because people play).

  8. #1948
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    Guys lately it seems that whenever i play a public matchmaking game everyone on my team is just plain horrible, weather i play support or carry most of the times i end up losing either because the person i am supporting is a complete douche, he doesnt know how to last hit and/or feeds and when i play a farming hero, my teammates are either eating up my farm or feeding. I have even gone into each persons dota profile to check his wins, even though they are around my level they are just plain lowskill players; i have 349 wins with a win rate of 49.29% i have been playing dota 1 for over 5 years, played many tournaments and have competed in my countries wcg qualifiers.

    How do i get into the highskilled match making pool please help, do i have to increase my win rate because that seems very hard with the current matchmaking pool i am in.

    here are a few examples of matches with feeders
    https://dotabuff.com/matches/47027249 - look at the team scores
    https://dotabuff.com/matches/46736506 - look at maginas items after 32minutes

    Here is a suggestion for dota2, heroes should be pickable based on a players skill, When a retard tries to pick void or magina it should say YOU ARE TOO MUCH OF A NOOB TO PLAY THIS HERO GO PLAY LOL OR HON
    Last edited by bellatrikz; 10-06-2012 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #1949
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    i had a 6 games win streak

    then i was cringing after that
    because im just waiting for them to throw me people who buys sny for CM
    just to end my streak

    and now im on a 4 games lose streak
    teamed with someone who picked rubick and complains that he doesnt know the opponent spells and so will not steal their spells

  10. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellatrikz View Post
    Guys lately it seems that whenever i play a public matchmaking game everyone on my team is just plain horrible, weather i play support or carry most of the times i end up losing either because the person i am supporting is a complete douche, he doesnt know how to last hit and/or feeds and when i play a farming hero, my teammates are either eating up my farm or feeding. I have even gone into each persons dota profile to check his wins, even though they are around my level they are just plain lowskill players; i have 349 wins with a win rate of 49.29% i have been playing dota 1 for over 5 years, played many tournaments and have competed in my countries wcg qualifiers.

    How do i get into the highskilled match making pool please help, do i have to increase my win rate because that seems very hard with the current matchmaking pool i am in.

    here are a few examples of matches with feeders
    https://dotabuff.com/matches/47027249 - look at the team scores
    https://dotabuff.com/matches/46736506 - look at maginas items after 32minutes

    Here is a suggestion for dota2, heroes should be pickable based on a players skill, When a retard tries to pick void or magina it should say YOU ARE TOO MUCH OF A NOOB TO PLAY THIS HERO GO PLAY LOL OR HON
    LOL ur the th in 2nd game and u r asking why. U farm a lot, little denies no wonder ur carry cant carry. And this happen in a losing game. I can understand 80-100 lh on th if its a winning game but its a losing game meaning safe creep waves are scarce which im sure u charge forward and use anchor smash to farm and push the wave into danger zone.

    First game theres a leaver so i assume everyone was jes playing for fun. At that lvl chances r its an early abandonment.

    Furthermore if ur in normal skill bracket with less than 50% wins then yes i think ur a normal player. Go read up hero guides at playdota.com, esp the older ones where the possible roles for ur hero is explained and i dun mean generalization like support, 'carry' (we used to call them farmers), initiator.

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