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Thread: Official Matchmaking Feedback Thread

  1. #2341
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    Matchmaking Issue

    LIKES:
    - Overall matchmaking process makes it way easier to find a game and play with friends compared to Warcraft3 DotA
    - System allows to find matches pretty fast
    - Teams are in my opinion usually equally strong

    DISLIKES:
    - Having "similarly High" Matchmaking players in team that still can't fulfil the easiest thinking of the game
    Explanation: People do not know about things like stackpulling, carry farm, lineup problems (like picking shaker for hardlane), no respect for support players, bad itembuilds

    Example: Someone plays a carry on the easy lane. Another player picks a doom bringer and single-pulls camps causing the carry's lane to push so he does not get any farm MatchID:55266239, 54660426
    Example: Tinker or Nature's Prophet TP to any place that the carry goes to in order to farm and disturb his farm. Carry is clearly walking towards the lane when he almost reaches it Nature's Prophet teleports to the lane in order to farm himself MatchID:55266239
    Example: Instead of getting useful and good Items people tend to build up useless stuff. For example Dagon instead of getting a hex versus carries - The Dagon being way too late to be effective. Same with players buying their minute 25 battlefuri MatchID:55266239

    So after all my problem with the current matchmaking is and I understand that players can have bad days, but there are many players missing many essential skills that are in "similarly High" Matchmaking as I am, which I think is not good. I do not know about the exact mechanics for putting teams together and I know for myself that this is a horrible horrible lot of work to do, but there needs to be a change to it. How can people that fit into those examples mentioned above be in this matchmaking pool, there must be a mistake.

    My Suggestion:
    Introduce some kind of player voting. With that I do not mean, that only players' votes put others into higher or lower matchmakings, but enable players at the end of the game to give maybe 2 players a +1 to increase their matchmaking value. This idea is not worked out completely and I understand with the very hateful matchmaking community this is a blade with two edges, but maybe some genius can pick up on this idea and figure out what to do in detail.
    Last edited by Illumnatu5; 10-30-2012 at 04:06 AM. Reason: slight changes

  2. #2342
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeanLuc View Post
    1) You did say that. You implied it was at least part of the reason why one sided games occur. You're right, just because a player has 4 wins doesn't mean he's bad, he could be a smurf, but do you skip the rest of the detail provided in the post? Its not just that we mention a player has 5 wins, we support it by observation of his gameplay. If a player with 5 wins doesnt even understand stuff like why not to autoattack or to buy a courier or where to place a ward, then its certain hes too low to be in the game with you. Try not to pick out bits of sentence and respond specifically to them.

    2) Do you have any numbers on how many one sided games occur? Have you conducted a study, measuring the number of games played over a certain period of time, ascertained the number of one sided games in those, then drawing statistically sound conclusions with a small margin of error to show that one sided games occur infrequently? Why is it that 200+ pages of complaints should be refuted based solely on your experience - the experience of one man.

    Also, I'm sure you're not too dumb to realize that most people don't make the effort to post on these boards.

    Its interesting you put (and that's their opinion), when saying MM is working is YOUR opinion. The difference is that 200+ pages of opinions say MM isnt working; and somehow your opinion should carry more weight?

    3) Made in response to your claim. It gets refuted, you back away like you never said it. OK.

    4) First of all, nobody expects PERFECT PAIRS. We only want matches to be, in general, reasonably balanced, and for the incredibly high frequency of one sided games to decrease. I have actually tried the 30 second reset, doesn't make much of a difference.

    Do you have any evidence people dont even look at the search bar? Have you installed surveillance cameras on every one that has posted in this thread? I'm intrigued, why is it that the opinions of 200+ pages of complaints are rendered invalid, while you pull facts out of your ass and expect people to believe them?

    Your arguments are stupid as fuck, and you're incredibly arrogant to think people should accept your baseless OPINIONS as fact.

    A) Then take my word for it, or that of any other HoN player that has switched to dota 2. HoNs MM is vastly superior. They have made it work; Valve have not. If I was a habitual complainer, I'd have complained about HoNs MM as well, or LoLs MM, or SC2 RT MM, but I have never done so.

    B) How do you know we are paired with people roughly at our skill level? Have the MM algorithms been made available to you by Valve? Have you conductive a massive study to determine the skill spread within games? Once again, you are passing off your OPINION based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE as fact, and expect it to overthrow the combined experiences of 200+ pages worth of players. Incredibly stupid.

    C) Your rank disparity has a clear explanation, ie you're trying to learn different heroes. I'm not. I pick and play to the best of my abilities on both accounts. On my normal account, my lifetime kdr is 2.5. On my high account, its 1.7. I maintain my ranks on both. Once again, your personal experience doesn't apply to me.

    D) I have come across many high level players who agree MM isn't working well for solo queue in particular. High level players tend to be long time players, which means they have allies, which means they don't solo queue often. But trust me, they know how shitty it is for solo queue.

    Everyone is aware of what illusory superiority and dunning-kruger are; its oftena comeback for someone who has been defeated on logical grounds. "most players on this thread suffer from it" ==> proof? Have you had everyone in this thread psychoanalyzed by a professional psychiatrist? Again, an insulting stance simply because you feel your personal opinion should overrule that of everyone else.



    The bottom line is that you have 0 facts. Your immutable opinions are founded solely on your personal experience, that of one player. A sample size of 1. I hope you realize no conclusiosn can be drawn from this.

    I have no idea why I bothered to type this all out since its patently evident you're an unpleasant combination of stupidity and arrogance.


    PS It would be absurd to suggest dunning kruger as the cause of the complaints in this thread, because MM complaints on such a massive scale never happened in LoL/HoN/SC2. That would imply dunning kruger is far, far more prevalent in the dota2 community as opposed to other gaming communities which is... utterly nonsensical.
    I am not going to single out every argument you made AGAIN and say why I dont concur since I can see our discussion will need to nowhere. I think we can agree that we disagree with each other.

    But I'll just leave this for your reflection. Do you think that a player with 42-48% winrate (As we constantly see here) that comes here to complain about their teammates and the Matchmaking system is right to say his allies were noobs and that he is superior to them? The next time someone posts a complaint and gives a MatchID, analyze the replay and see if it was the MM's fault that paired him with inferior players, or if he contributed on the loss.

    As for you JeanLuc, I would recommend you calling a friend and analyzing your last 10 replays and being real critical about them, don't just blame your teammates, try to find what you did wrong to you can improve. But thats just my 2 cents.

  3. #2343
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    Once again, you're making assumptions that I haven't discussed this with the people whom I play with or hang out with in channels. You assume that I have never cared to watch replays of games I've played or those which other people have played, and on the basis of these random ass assumptions, you are out right rejecting my conclusions. I obviously am not going to watch every single game that every persons posts or speaks about; I hope you realize how ridiculous that is.

    Heres the problem:

    You claim MM is working fine, based on your personal experience, possibly because some of the people you know feel this way etc. Thats fine, I can believe that. But realize that you don't have hard facts; the MM formulas Valve uses aren't at your disposal, so the most you can do is form an opinion based mostly on your personal experience.

    That is what people who feel MM isn't working for solo queue do as well. It is utterly ludicrous to reject such claims on the basis of 200+ pages of players being "newbs" or 99% of people being too dumb to realize how bad they are or everyone who claims MM isn't working must have dunning kruger syndrome. Do you realize how pointless and unfair a method of argumentation this is? If you feel MM is working well, provide your feedback in this thread. If others feel it isn't, they will do the same. But you make a ton of assumptions (such as my not watching my own replays or those of friends, or that everyone has dunning krugers, or that everyone in unbalanced matches must've let the search bar expand to an inordinate degree etc), and on the basis of these assumptions, you draw what you try to impose on people as irrefutable conclusions.

    I will agree with you that at least some people are flat out whining; but its ridiculous to suggest that 200+ pages of people (and most people don't post on the boards) are all whining.

  4. #2344
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    Oh, and "try to find what you did wrong to you can improve" is just standard and obvious advice. Shouldn't everyone do that, regardless of how they feel MM is working? The point isn't how good or bad people are, or how many games they've played, or if they could've had a greater impact in their game (obviously putting dendi in such a game would change the outcome); the point is that players, no matter how shitty or how skilled they are, must be put in games with players roughly as shitty or roughly as skilled.

    It would be easy as hell to watch replays and point out mistakes; I could do that with your games as well, because none of us are progamers. But this doesn't refute claims of massive skill disparity within games.

  5. #2345
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    Furthermore, since we don't know exactly how the MM algorithm works, we can't know for sure if win rate has any value in assessing skill level. It has already been suggested by many people that MM seems to work around forcing a win rate of around 50% as a primary priority, rather than allowing a person to climb up to his true rank, and achieving a 50% win rate as a side effect of that.

    Many people have claimed and offered explanations as to why you can still climb rank even with a win rate below 50%. Care to refute them on a factual basis?

    Who do you think is the superior player: Dendi, with a win rate of 52% (https://dotabuff.com/players/70388657), or beesa, with a win rate of 69% (https://dotabuff.com/players/43908335) ?

    A win rate of 50% doesn't clue you into how good or bad a person actually is; it only lets you know he is being matched against people of his own skill level. Newbs playing other newbs will have win rates around 50%, pros playing other pros of similar calibre can expect something similar.

  6. #2346
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeanLuc View Post
    Furthermore, since we don't know exactly how the MM algorithm works, we can't know for sure if win rate has any value in assessing skill level. It has already been suggested by many people that MM seems to work around forcing a win rate of around 50% as a primary priority, rather than allowing a person to climb up to his true rank, and achieving a 50% win rate as a side effect of that.

    Many people have claimed and offered explanations as to why you can still climb rank even with a win rate below 50%. Care to refute them on a factual basis?

    Who do you think is the superior player: Dendi, with a win rate of 52% (https://dotabuff.com/players/70388657), or beesa, with a win rate of 69% (https://dotabuff.com/players/43908335) ?

    A win rate of 50% doesn't clue you into how good or bad a person actually is; it only lets you know he is being matched against people of his own skill level. Newbs playing other newbs will have win rates around 50%, pros playing other pros of similar calibre can expect something similar.
    As I had said before, lets just agree to disagree.

    Good games for ya bro.

  7. #2347
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    Ok, lets take the information from first page:

    Originally Posted by EricTams
    As far as Matchmaking is concerned none of those buckets [low, medium, high] exist - We match on a continuous scale.
    Originally Posted by EricTams
    the easiest way to think about it is as a percentile rank so 100 levels.

    There is a maximum range that we match to that decreases based on your party size. This is why when you have a stack of 5 you end up taking longer to match since we can only match you to a few percent of the population.
    - We don't enforce a 50-50 win rate (Maybe we should?) instead we always try to make the best match possible. I'm always happy when I see someone with a win rate close to 50% though since it means that we haven't been skewing one way or the other in giving matches that were too hard or too easy. I totally agree with your desire to have fewer stomps though.
    General advice:
    Originally Posted by blash365
    the longer you search for a match, the broader the search range gets. unbalanced matches might be results of a broad search range. either change to a better populated server (in case you are playing at odd hours) or simply reset the search to restart at a finer search range.

    I was giving bad feedback alot on matchmaking, but now as i understand how it works i have only quality games recently. Basicly i am using general advice given by blash365 (up):
    i search for the match maximum 1minute, then cancel the search and start again in order for search range to be as minimum as possible, then i get quality matches (always equal, winning or losing doesn't matter but it feels that i play a game and not just some boring stomping 100:0).
    Last edited by beinbliss; 10-30-2012 at 07:54 AM.

  8. #2348
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    Quote Originally Posted by beinbliss View Post
    Ok, lets take the information from first page:
    I was giving bad feedback alot on matchmaking, but now as i understand how it works i have only quality games recently. Basicly i am using general advice given by blash365 (up):
    i search for the match maximum 1minute, then cancel the search a start again in order for search range to be as minimum as possible, then i get quality matches (always equal, winning or losing doesn't matter but it feels that i play a game and not just some boring stomping 100:0).
    I'm happy for ya bro, hope your games continue to improve.

  9. #2349

    One-sided match gloating

    In my opinion, there is currently a design flaw in dota 2:

    Matchmaking is not perfect, sometimes a team is matched against an opposing team that its completely outclassed by. Currently when this happens, which is quite obviously a failure of the matchmaking system, the players on the losing side are punished by having to waste time waiting for the game to end. In particular, sometimes the winning team in this situation drags the game out deliberately to gloat, refusing to push lanes, camping the spawn, and sitting and farming max builds while ganking anyone that leaves the base. My post concerns only this scenario.

    I understand the argument against a surrender option; it will only cause players to whine and surrender the moment their game is less than perfect for them, rather than playing the game out and trying to make a come-back (this happens constantly in LoL, I completely agree that we don't want that). Dota 2 especially has a tremendous potential for come-backs, which in my opinion makes it one of the most entertaining games to play and watch at the moment. Having no option available except to fight to the bitter end is great, because you never know what might happen. Ok, but every so often, a game is such a one-sided landslide victory for one team that there really is no hope, this is not a deniable fact. Now I don't think in principle one should have the option to just give up, but in some one-sided situations, the winning team gloats, as mentioned, and deliberately wastes the time of the losing team. Unless one of the losers decides to leave and eat the lpq, all 5 of them are stuck there until the winners feel like they have farmed enough and ganked enough to push and end it. This is an abusive situation, plain and simple. The winners behave like this precisely because they know the losers can't leave or else be punished.

    The design flaw is this: Due to the nature of game-abandon punishment, players placed in an imbalanced match are exposed to bad mannered abuse.
    The solution? There needs to be an objective mechanic which detects that a (very) one-sided game is stagnating, and either does give the losing team a surrender option (I'm sorry, but yes), or---and I haven't read mention of this elsewhere, but maybe its been suggested before---the winners can be punished for gloating.

    Dota 2 is quickly gaining popularity and is handily making its way to the be among the most competitive and entertaining games out there, but at such a high level comes a high standard, and this issue is one that will hamstring the game's success if not addressed.

  10. #2350
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    i checked some 'stomping' matches and apparently all players had equal stats (its not a secret you can check stats now at some web pages).

    the problem comes basically not because ppl are not equally skilled but because the game itself is imbalanced. The hardest part of the game which always decides the outcome is the picking phase. 5 ppl choose 5 carries and then cry why they got stomped by 2 supports 1 ganker and 2 semi carries... i wonder why... it seems legit, ok.
    but imbalance comes, when 5 ppl choose 5 certain carries which i won't discuss here, and stomp 2~ support, 1 hard, 1-2tanks or seemingly 'better' and more 'team-oriented' picks....

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