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Thread: Teamplay Impetus

  1. #11
    Basic Member moitoius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Your wall of text is beautifully posed and not what I was expecting on a game forum.

    *cheers* I am actually [I hope] not a bad player. I tend to play bad in games where there is no team synergy. I tend to rape in games where the team is owning (in-so-far as I am involved in a lot of the kills). If it is not obvious, I play support a lot (that or I am actually just bad) - this is directly related to the exact experience that you described (albeit in HoN): I was new (coming from 3v3 LAN EM - which is retarded). I was new, I played support - I stepped aside and let other people carry the game.

    Here is the irony: I actually play pretty well with carries [at least I think I do]; I actually play quite well with initiators [factual]. I still let other people take the helm. NOTHING in HoN helped me with this: it was basically playing with friends and them letting me learn. Even when I am carrying [and owning] I will play the long game; I won't be a dick and fountain rape them: I ensure the victory (push towers etc.). Experience with carries does not necessarily lend itself to good games; you need to be intimately aware of each class and actually be able to play them.

    So here is the contradiction: most carry players (I have seen) will fountain rape; if you actually want to win you will push towers if the opposing team is suppressed enough. This has resulted in the odd loss. Even letting the newbies play the carries may not work.

    Not-with-standing the contradiction here is my suggestion. From the PlayDota guides we can deduce synergies and arch enemies. When your team/enemy team picks heroes update the hero list with a glowing border indicating which picks might work: basically:

    • Red: Arch enemy on enemy team
    • Amber: Both red and green cases
    • Green: Synergetic hero on your team

    This would clearly be an additional MM/queuing option ("Show synergies") because it could be seen as an unfair advantage.

    Thank you for your post.

  2. #12
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by lamepeis View Post

    just sayin' (mby add a tl;dr version?)

    Right, just read it, could still use a tl;dr version, but i see why you haven't and really cant ^^'

    But i really dont think that valve hasnt thought of this in one way or another.

    You're talking about the performance meters and levels, but dont forget that they'll implement tutorials, achievements, and i could imagine multiple ingame additions that could help in hero picks aswell, theres alot of things they can add into the game, its still only a beta

    But as you said, i don't feel this is really a big problem and all i can say is that i have faith in valve when it comes to this
    I am sure they probably will and I appreciate that they will. Unfortunately at the end of the day when LIVE DoTA 2 drops onto the shelves nearly every player will ultimately play with two things in mind. Their personal statistics, and their personal progression. Those two factors will decide how the majority of players play. Those two factors MUSt reflect good teamwork and playstyle if we desire to see good teamwork and playstyle. IMHO.

    Thanks for coming back and taking the time to read through it.

  3. #13
    I 100% agree these issues should be looked into. Thank you we have faith in you Valve don't let us down!!

  4. #14
    Basic Member findus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    This kind of thing has been talked about for years, and I don't think a solid solution has been or will be found (not easily, at least).

    I'm not sure performance bars/ratings are the way to focus - I've seen many systems and they are always abusable in one way or another, no matter how you stack it. The way to get better teamwork is through education: picks, roles, early/mid/late/overall game plan, combos, ward positioning, matching skill builds, item builds, counters, initiating, plan Bs, plan Zs, etc, which comes mainly from experience - realising what does and doesn't work (in picks, roles, combos, etc. mentioned before) rather than just reading it or being told it. That comes with experience and careful tutorage over time.

    So, I absolutely disagree with your assertion that Dota does not have a hard learning curve, it has an insane learning curve. Although guidance helps, there is no shortcut to Dota improvement and no substitute for experience.

    F2P will bring in floods of newbies, I just hope that the MM system works properly so that the cream can rise to the top without being dragged down by the crap.

    Finally, hero balance at or around 50% win rate would go a very long way to solving this issue. Unfortunately, that's a very hard thing to do, though it would help if clearly OP heroes were nerfed properly and quickly, and clearly UP heroes were buffed properly and quickly. Which isn't really Iceforgs approach (more 'buff to the top, nerf to the bottom - gives each hero their time in the sun for a while' approach).
    Last edited by findus; 04-27-2012 at 05:53 AM.

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