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Thread: Fog of War

  1. #121
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    Homing auto-chasing heroes following you in fog really suck and make the game worse.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
    Homing auto-chasing heroes following you in fog really suck and make the game worse.
    Just tested it in game finally.

    This entire thread is based on false assumptions. You can easily juke someone if all they do is right click on you and expect the hero to chase and kill by itself. The video in the OP only worked because he had a Drow with frost arrows level 4 and was walking in straight lines back and forth between the trees.

    I just did this in a lobby, you can easily test this yourself. I picked OD and made an enemy Drow (same MS), went to the exact same spot as in the OP video.

    Using Drow to auto attack me (playing as OD) I then proceeded to juke around the trees. The result after losing sight of Drow (because when you create enemy NPC's in a lobby you can control them but do not get their vision) I continued my juke and I was not followed. When I went back to the last point I assumed the Drow saw me I found her standing there where she would have seen me last, but she did not continue following me because I stayed out of LoS. I tried it with frost arrows as well, same result. Even with level four frost arrows I was able to juke around the tree and stay out of the LoS.

    In conclusion the FoW is fine, the fact that the hero continues to the last known location you were see at makes sense and does not make juking harder at all. If anything it is EASIER because if someone was to rely on just right clicking once and hoping for their hero to follow and do all the work by itself they will just stop still because you can juke them that much easier.

    Juking is not harder in DOTA2 it has not been nerfed at all.

    Should have just tested it out myself way earlier, would have saved a lot of thread.

    EDIT: If I can get my fraps working with WMM I will record a video and post it here. Then all will see that FoW is fine, a misleading OP video lead us to believe otherwise.
    Last edited by nicoman; 07-11-2012 at 09:43 AM.

  3. #123
    Basic Member DarkSuo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    Just tested it in game finally.

    This entire thread is based on false assumptions. You can easily juke someone if all they do is right click on you and expect the hero to chase and kill by itself. The video in the OP only worked because he had a Drow with frost arrows level 4 and was walking in straight lines back and forth between the trees.

    I just did this in a lobby, you can easily test this yourself. I picked OD and made an enemy Drow (same MS), went to the exact same spot as in the OP video.

    Using Drow to auto attack me (playing as OD) I then proceeded to juke around the trees. The result after losing sight of Drow (because when you create enemy NPC's in a lobby you can control them but do not get their vision) I continued my juke and I was not followed. When I went back to the last point I assumed the Drow saw me I found her standing there where she would have seen me last, but she did not continue following me because I stayed out of LoS. I tried it with frost arrows as well, same result. Even with level four frost arrows I was able to juke around the tree and stay out of the LoS.

    In conclusion the FoW is fine, the fact that the hero continues to the last known location you were see at makes sense and does not make juking harder at all. If anything it is EASIER because if someone was to rely on just right clicking once and hoping for their hero to follow and do all the work by itself they will just stop still because you can juke them that much easier.

    Juking is not harder in DOTA2 it has not been nerfed at all.

    Should have just tested it out myself way earlier, would have saved a lot of thread.

    EDIT: If I can get my fraps working with WMM I will record a video and post it here. Then all will see that FoW is fine, a misleading OP video lead us to believe otherwise.
    The mater its more complicated than you describe it. The thing is, sometimes auto attacks fly off even when you enter in fog, like if they had vision over you. I have no problem with the "go to the last seen location" mechanic, but some auto attacks still hit you even if you enter on fog SOMETIMES, it doesnt happen every time. i could say a lot of places on the map that this happens, being a lot of them on the juke spots along the bottom lane, if youre outsider them and just rightclick your hero will just act like he have vision of the hero and auto attack from OUTSIDE the jukespot. that definitely shouldnt happen. Thats why the "attack" command should be broken when ones loses sight.
    Maverick Hunter.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSuo View Post
    The mater its more complicated than you describe it. The thing is, sometimes auto attacks fly off even when you enter in fog, like if they had vision over you. I have no problem with the "go to the last seen location" mechanic, but some auto attacks still hit you even if you enter on fog SOMETIMES, it doesnt happen every time. i could say a lot of places on the map that this happens, being a lot of them on the juke spots along the bottom lane, if youre outsider them and just rightclick your hero will just act like he have vision of the hero and auto attack from OUTSIDE the jukespot. that definitely shouldnt happen. Thats why the "attack" command should be broken when ones loses sight.
    I think I know what you are saying, however the only time I have seen this occur is on ranged attacks when the projectile is already in the air when you lose LoS of the target. In that case since the projectile started while you still had vision I don't see why it should not land.

  5. #125
    Basic Member DarkSuo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    I think I know what you are saying, however the only time I have seen this occur is on ranged attacks when the projectile is already in the air when you lose LoS of the target. In that case since the projectile started while you still had vision I don't see why it should not land.
    No no, it happens on melee too( i cited a spectre example on a post of mine) and it happens on ranged before the projectile fly off. the fact is this is very random, some times i can attack upramp enemy hero on the middle, he being on fog of war and sometimes i cant
    Maverick Hunter.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSuo View Post
    No no, it happens on melee too( i cited a spectre example on a post of mine) and it happens on ranged before the projectile fly off. the fact is this is very random, some times i can attack upramp enemy hero on the middle, he being on fog of war and sometimes i cant
    Hmm, I don't think I have yet seen/been able to attack an enemy who was in fog of war if my projectile hadn't left my hero yet. And definitely not a melee attack, if there were some videos or repro steps to be able to determine what is going on, if it is occuring.

  7. #127
    Basic Member DarkSuo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    Hmm, I don't think I have yet seen/been able to attack an enemy who was in fog of war if my projectile hadn't left my hero yet. And definitely not a melee attack, if there were some videos or repro steps to be able to determine what is going on, if it is occuring.
    I'll try to make some tests today and record a video.
    Maverick Hunter.

  8. #128
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    When a melee attack is started, it will continue and hit target even if he moves out of range. Same thing for FoW, the last attack will continue but if you aren't killed, that will just mean you got a bit advance and will easily juke him. FoW is working fine and the chase mechanic is just different from dota1. You'll just have to adapt.

  9. #129
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    There are some things in wc3 that occur based of limitations of the engine, but in all fairness, this is one thing that i believe is not. Wc3 was created using a specific fog of war and hero behavior when chasing into fog, which led to original dota being constructed based on this. The change into Dota 2 is one that makes the art of chasing much simpler, for the ease of new players. But to me, the original fog of war and hero behavior when entering fog of war, is a key characteristic of Dota, and brings an interesting twist to the game. It just doesn't feel as engaging without it, as it makes the small differences in ones play less substantial.

    I am completely with you OP, on this one. It doesn't need to be a drastic change, but I think reverting back to wc3 dota fog and hero behaviour, would truly enhance the game!
    Hoping valve (and the community as a whole) will give this a thought.

    On the topic of ranged attacks going off even though the player is no longer visible: A couple of matches ago i had a leshrac get off a last auto attack with no vision on me, through a wall of trees. So yes, it happens that projectiles goes off into fog without any vision, which needs to be fixed, this is though a bug, and not the case of an intended gameplay mechanic.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by martvall View Post
    There are some things in wc3 that occur based of limitations of the engine, but in all fairness, this is one thing that i believe is not. Wc3 was created using a specific fog of war and hero behavior when chasing into fog, which led to original dota being constructed based on this. The change into Dota 2 is one that makes the art of chasing much simpler, for the ease of new players. But to me, the original fog of war and hero behavior when entering fog of war, is a key characteristic of Dota, and brings an interesting twist to the game. It just doesn't feel as engaging without it, as it makes the small differences in ones play less substantial.

    I am completely with you OP, on this one. It doesn't need to be a drastic change, but I think reverting back to wc3 dota fog and hero behaviour, would truly enhance the game!
    Hoping valve (and the community as a whole) will give this a thought.

    On the topic of ranged attacks going off even though the player is no longer visible: A couple of matches ago i had a leshrac get off a last auto attack with no vision on me, through a wall of trees. So yes, it happens that projectiles goes off into fog without any vision, which needs to be fixed, this is though a bug, and not the case of an intended gameplay mechanic.
    It has already been determined that the Hero will only follow to the last known location and stand still if no sight of the hero is found. Therefore relying on simply right clicking will make it easier to juke, not harder. Secondly A match ID on the Leshrac attack you are referring to will help, otherwise people tend to call BS.

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