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Thread: Recommended starting heroes should be changed

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLite View Post
    That's almost as threatening as "Don't diss the Crystal Maiden or you get the Arcane Aura"
    The day will come when you will fear the all mighty Alchemist

  2. #22
    Basic Member 1337_n00b's Avatar
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    Oh, I didn't mean to be mean. In facto, I'm an Alchemist fan and player myself (and a hilariously bad one at that), but it's just so satisfying to make him look like a powerhouse of dust.

    Still, he can stun himself, needs careful farming and can stun himself.
    Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_n00b View Post
    Oh, I didn't mean to be mean. In facto, I'm an Alchemist fan and player myself (and a hilariously bad one at that), but it's just so satisfying to make him look like a powerhouse of dust.

    Still, he can stun himself, needs careful farming and can stun himself.
    Just trying to have a little banter with you :P.

    Also on a serious note, I wasn't disagreeing with you in that aspect. Definitely not a noob friendly hero, took me over a year to be good with him.

  4. #24
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    Da fuq? Squishy somehow means hard to play? And your hero list is ten miles long? I'd remove sniper and a few others and add more supports. "escape doesn't make a hero noob friendly. You seem hell bent on having carry only teams, recommending tons of carries to noobs.

  5. #25
    Basic Member Bashtime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winxp View Post
    Of all the "recommended starting heroes", sniper is probably the worst actual hero for new players. New players shouldn't be playing a hero that:
    • Has the second lowest base damage in the game, making farming more difficult than other heroes
    • Is easily ganked
    • Is extremely item dependent


    These also apply to Drow to a lesser degree (but with poor animation instead of poor damage). It doesn't help that both of these heroes have bad recommended builds, but that belongs in a new thread.

    Heroes that would be much better for beginners (selected from radiant agility to compensate):

    • Juggernaut <- Item dependant. No. You must know how to blade fury and estimate enemy movements
    • Morph (still item dependent but at least has an escape) Agree
    • Ursa (simple right click hero) Agree


    The only other recommended hero that I disagree with would be Lycan, since micro skills and knowledge of different neuts is important, although he's still fairly easy to play.

    For the reference, the recommended heroes are:
    • DK, Sven
    • Drow, Sniper <- Sniper really farm dependant. Map awareness needed.
    • Zeus, Lina, Rhasta, CM
    • Tide, Skeleton King, Lycan
    • Void, Veno <- Void really farm dependant. shouldn't belong here
    • Necro, Lion, Lich



    Update: without considering at all what the current recommended heroes are, here are the top heroes I would pick for beginners and why, based on my opinions and feedback in this thread:

    Radiant Str:
    • Huskar: Easy hero, powerful in pubs, and it's not like not knowing how to orbwalk is going to completely ruin him.
    • DK: Simple abilities, very survivable.
    • Sven: Easy abilities, good stun, good DPS with cheap items.

    Rad Agi:
    • Morph: Escape, survivability
    • Riki: Escape, survivability
    • AM: Escape, only two active abilities
    • Ursa: Very simple, and noobs aren't going to know how to kite.
    • Jugg: good burst damage for an agi hero, has a semi-escape
    • PL: escape

    Rad Int:
    • WR: Only thing hard is landing stuns, everything else about this hero is easy (escape, 2.5 str gain, good abilites) <- Prolly one of the hardest heroes to be effective. Timing + Skillshots needed. 4 spells for a beginner srsly?
    • Zeus: easy nuker. Still paper though, might remove him from the list.
    • Rhasta: Easy pusher
    • Jakiro: Straightforward nuker
    • OM: Also fairly straightforward

    Dire Str:
    • Slardar: escape, good stun
    • Tide: probably the easiest initiator to play. Blink and press 1 button.
    • Skeleton King: 1 active skill, tanky, free deaths
    • Naix: fairly easy beginner jungle hero
    • Spirit breaker: Easy, especially if the other team is uncoordinated
    • Axe: also an easy jungler
    • Lycan: too easy

    Dire Agi:
    • Weaver: two escapes
    • Void: escape
    • Clinkz: escape
    • Viper: good damage, fairly nuke-resistant with passive,

    Dire Int:
    • Krob: Easy pusher hero
    • QoP: Escape, nukes



    Rejected heroes and justification:
    • Omni: they won't understand what order things have to be cast in to not block or dispel their other abilities
    • ES: not looking forward to my allies blocking me
    • Kunkka: skillshots
    • Clock: skillshots
    • Alch: bad hero in general
    • Tiny: need to be able to combo fast. I would make this hero recommended if Ava+Toss extra damage was mentioned in tooltips.
    • Brew: micro skills
    • BM: some skills are required to fully utilize call.
    • Sylla: micro and no escape
    • Sniper: see top of post
    • PotM: skillshots
    • VS: bad in uncoordinated pubs (you swap and your allies react 5 seconds later)
    • Enchant: requires knowledge of neutrals
    • Storm: Requires too much mana management
    • Puck: skillshots, being able to effectively phase shift
    • Chen: Micro and knowledge of neuts required
    • Tinker: mana manament, gankable, farm dependent
    • Silencer: situational pick
    • Furion: some micro and jungling knowledge required, also get ready for even more HoM-Aghs furions who spam ult every CD when you have a void and AM on your team.
    • CM: paper
    • Lina: stun delay
    • NS: Only good at night
    • Naix: not sure
    • SK: requires good positioning and knowing when to ult
    • Pudge: skillshots
    • Doom: knowledge of neutrals
    • Spec: too farm dependent, escape isn't great
    • SF: paper, no escape, lasthitting is hard for the first couple levels
    • Veno: people won't know when and when not to throw down wards
    • Brood: works best in a solo sidelane but that won't often be available in pubs
    • BS: requires good lasthitting and denying, also not a good hero to be putting in noob matches because of the ult
    • The rest of dire int: too many to go through, most of them boil down to having complex mechanics like Bane's nightmare and AA's ult or being difficult to play like invoker.


    One common mistake that people will make is conflating "simple" and "easy" (and "boring", but that's not as relevant to this). Skeleton King is easy and simple, but Drow/Sniper is simple but not easy. This is what I'm trying to avoid here to some degree.


    Edits:
    Everyone seems to think Lycan is easy enough, so I put him in recommended.
    Added Sven, I think I just forgot about him the first time around since he isn't in the rejected list either.
    Red means bad
    Green good

  6. #26
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    How is morph noob-friendly, I don't think a noob will understand how to use the strenthg/agility switching at all.

  7. #27
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    Was this feature removed cause I was enjoying it....

  8. #28
    Basic Member Yorien's Avatar
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    I love all those "beginner" threads.

    Recommended heroes for beginners are the best ones for beginners to actually LEARN how to play the game, shamefully most of the people believe beginner heroes are the ones a beginner should pick to screw their team the less possible amount while they learn.

    In fact, I believe most of the beginner picks are well selected (maybe some swaps could be made here and there), because they allow you to learn many different aspects of the game, which is the main focus of a "beginner hero".

    If you screw up, doesn't matter, you're not playing a pro tournament with 1.000.000$ price pool, you're learning how to play and will probably be paired with other people learning. And if the matchmaking process pairs you with a bunch of 638w/14l elitist pro's that ask you to pick a Riki and get out of their way, tell them they can GO TO HELL and that they can post a thread on these forums... on the BUGS > GAMEPLAY BUGS section. This is a beta and the matchmaking process screwed up, not you.

    - - - - - - - -

    SNIPER, DROW RANGER, FACELESS VOID: Laning, Last Hitting, Carrying, Passives and Auras. All of them carries (oh my gosh! beginner unfriendly!!). Sniper is probably the first hero a beginner should pick. A beginner will learn to last hit and deny with SNIPER way faster and safer than with any other hero because of being ranged and it's almost instant projectile speed. He has an amazing range, and range is "safe" for beginners. Then move towards Traxex to learn about different animations and projectile speeds. Void as a third gives you a damaging melee hero with some escape mechanics and good defensive/offensive capabilities. Finally, all of them are loaded with passives and even a powerful aura, so you can concentrate in the game itself and not in clicking buttons.

    Laning phase is the first one being played, and the first one beginners should learn to play correctly.

    DRAGON KNIGHT, SVEN, SKELETON KING: Melee, Resource management. Tanky heroes with good in-lane sustain. You'll get damaged more, you'll probably draw more aggro so you'll have to control your life. Also your mana pools are abismally low, so resource management is a must... and management is GOOD for learning.

    CRYSTAL MAIDEN, NECROLITE, LICH : Support, Lane control, Denying, Harassing , Skill usage, skill placement, some "spamability"... you learn to play a more supportive role, to stun/lock/disable enemy units and to help your team. You will tend to deny and harass more and to last hit less. Pretty good mana sustain in all cases, so mana shouldn't be an issue when needed. Also, Lich helps a lot in learning lane control.

    LINA, LION, ZEUS. Ganking, Map Layout, Comboing, Positioning. Look for targets and unload all you got, burn them to cinders. You even learn some skillshot placement with Lina. Since you'll tend to roam more with these than most other beginner heroes, you'll easily learn the map, it's tricks, and positioning for a successful gank/ambush.

    VENOMANCER, SHADOW SHAMAN: Pushing, Map control. Learn to build pressure on a lane, to keep enemies continually under siege, to achieve map control .

    LYCAN: Jungling, Map Layout. Learn the neutral camps, the jungle routes, the timing, the jungle layout and basic unit micro. Don't forget all that rtoaming and ganking

    TIDEHUNTER: Initiation, Teamfighting. Sometimes your job is simply to pop your ulti in the best place possible, and at the best possible timing. It's an important part of the game nonetheless, and Tidehunter is a good starting character to learn it Since it becomes tanky very fast, and thus, can easily survive the initiation. You don't need much farm to get the most basic items for doing your job with a well placed Ravage.

    - - - - - - - -

  9. #29
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    No hard-carry should be recommended.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorien View Post
    Recommended heroes for beginners are the best ones for beginners to actually LEARN how to play the game, shamefully most of the people believe beginner heroes are the ones a beginner should pick to screw their team the less possible amount while they learn.
    And going 0-10 with sniper/drow is not good for the team OR the person trying to learn how to play. It doesn't help that the recommended builds are trash and don't teach you how to effectively build.

    Read the almost-bottom of my OP. Don't think that just because a hero is very simple that they are easy to play. This is true in some cases (leo) but untrue in others (sniper).

    Also, I've been editing the OP to reflect opinions in this thread. I put Lycan in recommended since that seems to be the majority opinion and made a few other changes.

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