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Thread: Recommended starting heroes should be changed

  1. #31
    Basic Member Yorien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winxp View Post
    And going 0-10 with sniper/drow is not good for the team OR the person trying to learn how to play. It doesn't help that the recommended builds are trash and don't teach you how to effectively build.
    Again, you immediately think of beginners in team terms. Forget the team, the team composition, the team score or that you end 0/2.000.000/1 (yup lucky assist). You are learning the game mechanics and there are no tutorials yet to help you, so you either configure a bot game (something that beginners should actually do) or go straight for the PvP fun with a near-to-zero knowledge.

    Did you win in your first Team Fortress 2 game, or got raped and pissed of your team instead? Got raped. 0/10. Thought so.

    - - - -

    Let's plan a typical beginner's scenario:

    A friend watched something called "The International" last year, placed some apply to a game in development, got access the last week and yesterday sent a gift to your Steam account for a game called DotA2. The only thing you know about it are two matches he showed you on Youtube with your friend telling you to "watch Dendi playing Pudge". So, you d/l DotA, and since you're a PvP whore (you're pretty good at counter strike and BF3) you go straight to matchmaking mode. Bots are for sissies.

    On your first DotA2 game you're expected to be teamed with similar skill level players, (unless, like I said, you get teamed with elitist pros on all of your first 10 DotA2 matches - remember to report matchmaking process on the dev. forums... seems to be awfully bugged -)

    So, let's say we have a 1st time Sniper (counter strike Arctic ftw) with an opposite 3rd timer Clinkz in a lane (as one of your recommended ranged heroes). This is NOT a pro 1-1-3 game, or a 1-1-2-jungle, or whatever, this is a beginner's game with 10 players with the most "seasoned one" having played, let's say... 6 matches (still, has the advantage of having watched some of The International matches), so:

    - Laning choices will be poorly made
    - People will either play reckless, or way more carefully
    - People will have pretty bad timings
    - People will have long reaction times
    - 50% of the time they will forget and misuse skills, items and active item abilities specially under pressure and when teamfights start (if they even start)
    - Phases (specially laning) will be longer
    - ...
    - Oh, and, of course, eight of the ten chosen heroes will be hard carries. The last two being a Mirana ("booobies!") and a Brewmaster from a player coming from the MoP beta...

    I can tell you in that scenario laning phase that Sniper will outfarm Clinkz 10 out of 10 times simply because of his almost instant projectile speed. Clinkz animation and projectile speed is abismally slow (I believe even DR projectile is faster, and I consider Drow Ranger to have a "slow" projectile speed for the purpose of learning attack timings). Sniper will easilly get creep score, and once he starts trying that "strange thing" called deny (your friend at Skype , playing other game. "Yes, simply click 'A' and then on your own creep, so you can kill it instead of the enemy so he doesn't get money, once you finish I'll tell you how to change it so you can right-click deny"), will find than the most difficult part of it is actually looking at his own creep life bars.

    Sniper will make a lot of timing mistakes (most common one for beginners is shotting when enemy creep has more then 1 hit hp), but Clinkz will make those same mistakes, while also being impaired by the awfully slow projectile timing. Drow Ranger is much better than Clinkz, because, while still having a slow projectile speed, her damage aura will help a lot on those timing miscalculations (and still, her projectiles I believe are a little faster than Clinkz's).

    Oh, and don't expect ganks and the like for let's say... 12 levels, unless some of the players have actually watched a lot of games and decide to give them a try. Kills will be made in a lane by that lane players, and in 99% of the cases because of overextension or excess of creep aggro drawn. You can expect a long, "safe" laning phase on beginner games that can even keep going till T1 towers start falling.

    At the end of that game, Sniper will have outfarmed and raped Clinkz, and learned much more on how the laning phase is played, how to get cs and how to deny. The Clinkz player will learn, of course, and every cs he can get is an enormous victory, but still wont get that much knowledge of the game once Sniper starts laning him out because of the better items he gets.

    So yes, I believe Sniper is a much better option for beginners.

  2. #32
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    It doesn't matter that much if sniper can outfarm the clinkz by a decent margin. What you have to remember is that farm is always going to be fairly bad at that level. Sniper needs huge amounts of farm to be effective while clinkz can start actually carrying with just an orchid. An orchid is attainable even with not-so-great farm. However, when sniper needs manta just to not die and even more items to actually kill someone, you run into a problem. Most of the action, as you said, will be kills in lane. Sniper isn't particurly good at getting early kills and isn't good at avoiding death either since his range is all he has. Bone can at least WW and has good burst damage.

    Even if laning lasts excessively long, sniper's huge item dependence will put him at too much of a disadvantage.

    Actually, I'd like to see some very low level matches. If anyone has match IDs of matches where everyone is very new and the level of skill is generally low, I'd like to watch them to see what kinds of heroes would or would not be successful in them.
    Last edited by winxp; 05-30-2012 at 09:47 PM.

  3. #33
    Basic Member Yorien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winxp View Post
    It doesn't matter that much if sniper can outfarm the clinkz by a decent margin. What you have to remember is that farm is always going to be fairly bad at that level.
    I can assure you farm will not be bad at that level, but will actually suck on beginner games... . Something like last hitting that on higher level matches becomes natural, is simply "difficult" for beginners, specially when not accustomed to moving (you can recognize a beginner at a glance on laning phase because they're stationary, probably with the mouse cursor placed on the creep they'll try to last-hit. I did that when started playing) or to 'S' animation canceling, so don't ever expect a lot of money coming for either side. If you get ONE creep for every 5 attempts and ONE deny every 10 attemps on your first game, you're doing pretty much fine. Beginners may take up to ten minutes to achieve the same cs than a seasoned player can achieve in two/three. Yes, once they play 20 matches, they start becoming better... but once you reach 20 matches you may have tried heroes that are not even on the beginner's list.

    Quote Originally Posted by winxp View Post
    Sniper needs huge amounts of farm to be effective while clinkz can start actually carrying with just an orchid. An orchid is attainable even with not-so-great farm. However, when sniper needs manta just to not die and even more items to actually kill someone, you run into a problem.Most of the action, as you said, will be kills in lane. Sniper isn't particularly good at getting early kills and isn't good at avoiding death either since his range is all he has. Bone can at least WW and has good burst damage.

    Even if laning lasts excessively long, sniper's huge item dependence will put him at too much of a disadvantage.
    ... If Clinkz ever gets to pick Orchid. Something you feel "natural" (building Orchid as first core) is not as simple to "see" for a beginner.

    On the first games, beginners probably build directly from Valve's recommended items, and while Orchid is in Clinkz's core... there's still item location and the money problem. On pro games you can see AMs farming BF by the '18 mark. Expect a beginner to get that same item on twice the time if he/she builds it up first... and for building Orchid, a beginner will first pass through Aquila's and Oblivion staff, because game says they come "first". Also, something "natural" as building full items on the stash and then sending them via courier are not natural for a beginner. You'll see normal couriers (not flying ones, but normal ones) continually moving back and forth to deliver a single branch, or a circlet for a wraith band... you buy an item, you want it now. This will lead to inventory problems, not having TP scrolls and a whole bunch of things. So, I shouldn't count much on item buildup for beginner games. With bad team compositions (can even be seen in current "seasoned" pubs) and even worse teamplay, most games resolve on who gets one or two decent items faster, since snowballing is much easier. A hero that gets a "good" item before opposition will easily outlane and outplay enemy heroes, because beginners are not accustomed to those disadvantages.

    As for common in-lane kills, unless both players play very defensive, most of the time kills won't come from a sudden burst of damage from one of them, but mostly from overextension (a player harasses with too many creeps around, gets creep aggro, other player retaliates without paying attention to enemy creeps around, and in the hell that breaks loose with all creeps hitting heroes, one of them dies under the enemy hero/creep/tower damage while the other tries to run away at 20% life with a bunch of angry creeps closely behind).

    Placing both heroes on mid lane so neither has the advantage, Sniper, with his range and leveling passives, has the upper hand here since he can play more "safer" than Clinkz. Distance from creeps an enemies is a lifesaver on beginning games since you cannot damage what you can't reach.

    - - - - -

    I believe we have different perspectives on how a beginner hero should be played. As I said, for me beginner heroes should be ones that help you learn faster a variety of game aspects, while you tend to prefer decent, all-around heroes that can become competitive more easily or screw teammates less. I don't take into account things like team composition (as I said... a 10 beginner game may easily be composed of 8 hard carries, a semi carry and an initiator, simply because they look cool), how they'll behave in all phases of the game, what they need to perform better or not and many other "global aspects". I prefer to concentrate and learn one thing at a time, and then move to the next one. The more beginners you see in a game, the more absurd situations you'll encounter, anyway.

    Since this is a beta, player population is somewhat "small" (still, DotA2 is the second most played multiplayer came on steam just after Counter Strike), and most of the players are more or less "seasoned" (but still, there is a small flow of new players entering the game, usually in waves when a bunch new beta applies are issued) so matchmaking has a hard time pairing players with similar skill levels... but once game opens to public, DotA2 is expected to receive a helluva lot of incoming players so "beginner pairing" will become way easier.

    For me, the game's basic aspects are these ones (consider these as "tutorials" like any game), and beginner heroes are actually pretty well chosen to fulfill those "tutorials":

    01-. Minimap and Camera control
    02-. Movement
    03-. The Base. Game objectives
    04-. The hero
    05-. The Courier
    06-. The Skills
    07-. The Shop
    08-. Attacking: Not laning, but learning to attack, last-hit and even to deny (aka "last-hit your creep"). Also, creep aggro could be added here.

    Now, we have three diferent kind of heroes for learning a core aspect as last hitting:

    - MELEE: The easiest one. Animation plays and when damage is actually going to be dealt, it's instant. Selection of heroes is good enough, with many tanky melees and a semi-squishy (Faceless) with passive defenses.
    - "FAST" RANGED: Mid difficulty. Animation plays and when the damage is actually going to be dealt, project travels fast enough so delay is very low. Sniper belongs here. Other possible choices could be, for example, QoP, Venge... but of all fast rangeds, Sniper is the one.
    - "SLOW" RANGED: Hardest. Animation plays and when the damage is actually going to be dealt, project travels slow enough so you must take into account projectile speed distance to target and other possible attacks being made meanwhile. Drow Ranger and Lich belong here, and Clinkz should join this tier.

    09-. The Lanes. Game Flow
    10-. Jungling and Neutrals. Roshan

    So, for me, Sniper is the perfect "fast-ranged" hero to learn laning and last-hitting. Has range, has decent enough damage, has the best ranged projectile speed currently in the game, and doesn't have "useful" active skills for laning so you only concentrate on right click last-hitting and denying.

    Clinkz, on the other side... is difficult to place on "my" beginner learning method. He is a "slow-ranged" hero, but we have also Drow Ranger, Venomancer, Lich and maybe Shadow Shaman there. So I'd select the best hero depending on what's commonly happening in a lane:

    LAST HITTING/DENYING:

    - Clinkz has Searing arrow so you can actually learn how to orb-walk and to add a little burst damage to your attacks.

    - Drow Ranger can also teach you to orb-walk and has passive attack damage built in.

    - Sniper has range so he can last-hit/deny safer than other heroes. His unreliable headshot sometimes helps with last hits.

    I will not count Sniper since he's "fast-ranged" and plays in another league (but for me, Sniper range alone gives him a lot of advantage on target selection). Still, DR has more base damage and a faster arrow speed thus making her "easier"

    LANE CONTROL

    - Clinkz has not any type of laning flow control.

    - Lich has Sacrifice and AoE damage for pulling/pushing

    - Venomancer has AoE poison and wards por pushing

    - Shadow Shaman has Shock for pushing the lane

    - Sniper can use shrapnel to help a little with pushing, and also gets some unreliable bursts of damage from time to time with his headshots.

    Lich wins here, not taking into account "advanced mechanics like neutral pulling.

    HARASS:

    - Clinkz has an escape mechanic, so has a good advantage here, Searing arrows help with burst damage harass from time to time and learning orb-walking.

    - Veno is a big harasser by simply leveling poison passive, since a single right click can take an enormous chunk of health at no cost. Also, has a somewhat "escape mechanic" with his enormous slow, which is also a skillshot to learn targeting.

    - Drow Ranger has high damage with her passive, she cannot burst.

    - Sniper has the best range for a right click, so it could be considered a "defensive harass". Headshot gives unreliable damage bursts here and there.

    - Shadow shaman can make a push-harass from time to time, and, very situationally, get a shackle here and there with creep aggro or at tower range.

    I'd say clinkz and Veno are pretty much paired here, as long as Clinkz always orb-walk harasses. If Clinkz does not, Veno wins by a high difference.

    PUSHING

    - Clinkz has big burst damage to take down towers with Searing and Strafe, but no means of cleaning creeps.

    - Lich can use Frost Blast for creeps, but no tower damage.

    - Venomancer has his wards and also his gale for creeps.

    - Shadow shaman has his Shock and wards for creep/tower pushing.

    Rhasta is better for "burst" pushing (Depends on wards availability) and Veno for continual pushing.

    - - - -

    Thus, I feel there are always better choices than Clinkz, and his main "strength", it's ganking/escaping mechanic is built towards more advanced games and not for beginner ones.
    Last edited by Yorien; 05-31-2012 at 03:35 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorien View Post
    Thus, I feel there are always better choices than Clinkz, and his main "strength", it's ganking/escaping mechanic is built towards more advanced games and not for beginner ones.
    Agreed, but I don't think sniper is a better choice. The problem isn't laning, it's everything past laning. Since beginner games just won't have good farm on carries (from splitting farm due to dumb lane setups and generally poor last-hitting), a sniper will just not get farmed up enough to carry. I think in games that are that bad, you'll see people end up with maybe 100 cs. 100 cs gets sniper his treads and one high-tier item. That's generally not enough to carry with sniper. Even though the other team will probably also have poor farm, sniper is probably one of the least effective carries with low farm.

    A lot of new players just won't understand how a hard carry works and they won't realize just how much farm they need with sniper.

  5. #35
    Basic Member SamusCR1's Avatar
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    Phantom Lancer SHOULDNT be in the beginners list, itrequires a high learning to curve to be played properly, ive seen like 3 good pl since released patch, the rest of them gets juxtapose at lvl 1 with no idea how to build up your items, no idea how to last hit and so on. Definitly PL is NOT for beginners.

  6. #36
    Basic Member Yorien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winxp View Post
    Agreed, but I don't think sniper is a better choice. The problem isn't laning, it's everything past laning. Since beginner games just won't have good farm on carries (from splitting farm due to dumb lane setups and generally poor last-hitting), a sniper will just not get farmed up enough to carry. I think in games that are that bad, you'll see people end up with maybe 100 cs. 100 cs gets sniper his treads and one high-tier item. That's generally not enough to carry with sniper. Even though the other team will probably also have poor farm, sniper is probably one of the least effective carries with low farm.

    A lot of new players just won't understand how a hard carry works and they won't realize just how much farm they need with sniper.
    That's quite true... but also think that the rest of the game players won't be farmed enough to make that "one big item" Sniper underpowered. He won't be a carry, but can be a "damaging player" with that "big item" (for example, if it's a Desolator).

    There won't be many 5v5 teamfights on Beginner games, since half of the people will forget to carry a TP scroll to attack/defend, so most of the time will be ganks or small skirmishes, at least till the fights start closing in on either team's base. And even while defending, Hard Carries usually keep farming till the last possible second. On beginner games they either move to defend and wait two minutes doing nothing while enemy team clears the entire lane from their base, or stays doing whatever he was doing (may include farming) thinking that someone else will defend.

    Finally, he doesn't need to be the "main" hard carry... there are three other hard carries on his team that may fulfill that job.

    While Sniper may not be the best hard carry hero while "not-farmed" enough (I won't say underfarmed, since all players will be underfarmed), probably is the easiest ranged laner for beginners to compensate that late game, and I believe the better the laning phase on beginner games, the better the mid-late game. A better lane phase will easily mean T1 towers (Since 99% of the time other players won't try to defend, so a single in-lane kill may mean damaging or even taking down a T1), and that extra money may perfectly mean the beginning of a snowball.

    Oh, and also, half of the time, (if not even more), players (including Sniper) will focus that big green enemy whale/alligator thing with an anchor on the front of the enemy team, simply because gives a bigger target than the redhead with flaming hands moving behind...

    - - -

    For me, Sniper lanes extremely well and safer (because of range) than most other heroes, and is the best hero to learn ranged last-hitting. May not be the "best" hero after laning phase because he'll lack important luxury items, but will be a decent damage dealer and games will be chaotic enough for that item lacking not being that important.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamusCR1 View Post
    Phantom Lancer SHOULDNT be in the beginners list, itrequires a high learning to curve to be played properly, ive seen like 3 good pl since released patch, the rest of them gets juxtapose at lvl 1 with no idea how to build up your items, no idea how to last hit and so on. Definitly PL is NOT for beginners.
    +1. PL should be an intemediate to advanced hero. Even if you really want to learn microing, there are way better choices (I'd say start with Lycan, then Furion, then Chen or Enchantress to include minion skills)
    Last edited by Yorien; 06-01-2012 at 08:14 AM.

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