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Thread: Recommended starting heroes should be changed

  1. #1
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    Recommended starting heroes should be changed

    Of all the "recommended starting heroes", sniper is probably the worst actual hero for new players. New players shouldn't be playing a hero that:
    • Has the second lowest base damage in the game, making farming more difficult than other heroes
    • Is easily ganked
    • Is extremely item dependent


    These also apply to Drow to a lesser degree (but with poor animation instead of poor damage). It doesn't help that both of these heroes have bad recommended builds, but that belongs in a new thread.

    Heroes that would be much better for beginners (selected from radiant agility to compensate):

    • Juggernaut
    • Morph (still item dependent but at least has an escape)
    • Ursa (simple right click hero)


    The only other recommended hero that I disagree with would be Lycan, since micro skills and knowledge of different neuts is important, although he's still fairly easy to play.

    For the reference, the recommended heroes are:
    • DK, Sven
    • Drow, Sniper
    • Zeus, Lina, Rhasta, CM
    • Tide, Skeleton King, Lycan
    • Void, Veno
    • Necro, Lion, Lich



    Update: without considering at all what the current recommended heroes are, here are the top heroes I would pick for beginners and why, based on my opinions and feedback in this thread:

    Radiant Str:
    • Huskar: Easy hero, powerful in pubs, and it's not like not knowing how to orbwalk is going to completely ruin him.
    • DK: Simple abilities, very survivable.
    • Sven: Easy abilities, good stun, good DPS with cheap items.

    Rad Agi:
    • Morph: Escape, survivability
    • Riki: Escape, survivability
    • AM: Escape, only two active abilities
    • Ursa: Very simple, and noobs aren't going to know how to kite.
    • Jugg: good burst damage for an agi hero, has a semi-escape
    • PL: escape

    Rad Int:
    • WR: Only thing hard is landing stuns, everything else about this hero is easy (escape, 2.5 str gain, good abilites)
    • Zeus: easy nuker. Still paper though, might remove him from the list.
    • Rhasta: Easy pusher
    • Jakiro: Straightforward nuker
    • OM: Also fairly straightforward

    Dire Str:
    • Slardar: escape, good stun
    • Tide: probably the easiest initiator to play. Blink and press 1 button.
    • Skeleton King: 1 active skill, tanky, free deaths
    • Naix: fairly easy beginner jungle hero
    • Spirit breaker: Easy, especially if the other team is uncoordinated
    • Axe: also an easy jungler
    • Lycan: too easy

    Dire Agi:
    • Weaver: two escapes
    • Void: escape
    • Clinkz: escape
    • Viper: good damage, fairly nuke-resistant with passive,

    Dire Int:
    • Krob: Easy pusher hero
    • QoP: Escape, nukes



    Rejected heroes and justification:
    • Omni: they won't understand what order things have to be cast in to not block or dispel their other abilities
    • ES: not looking forward to my allies blocking me
    • Kunkka: skillshots
    • Clock: skillshots
    • Alch: bad hero in general
    • Tiny: need to be able to combo fast. I would make this hero recommended if Ava+Toss extra damage was mentioned in tooltips.
    • Brew: micro skills
    • BM: some skills are required to fully utilize call.
    • Sylla: micro and no escape
    • Sniper: see top of post
    • PotM: skillshots
    • VS: bad in uncoordinated pubs (you swap and your allies react 5 seconds later)
    • Enchant: requires knowledge of neutrals
    • Storm: Requires too much mana management
    • Puck: skillshots, being able to effectively phase shift
    • Chen: Micro and knowledge of neuts required
    • Tinker: mana manament, gankable, farm dependent
    • Silencer: situational pick
    • Furion: some micro and jungling knowledge required, also get ready for even more HoM-Aghs furions who spam ult every CD when you have a void and AM on your team.
    • CM: paper
    • Lina: stun delay
    • NS: Only good at night
    • Naix: not sure
    • SK: requires good positioning and knowing when to ult
    • Pudge: skillshots
    • Doom: knowledge of neutrals
    • Spec: too farm dependent, escape isn't great
    • SF: paper, no escape, lasthitting is hard for the first couple levels
    • Veno: people won't know when and when not to throw down wards
    • Brood: works best in a solo sidelane but that won't often be available in pubs
    • BS: requires good lasthitting and denying, also not a good hero to be putting in noob matches because of the ult
    • The rest of dire int: too many to go through, most of them boil down to having complex mechanics like Bane's nightmare and AA's ult or being difficult to play like invoker.


    One common mistake that people will make is conflating "simple" and "easy" (and "boring", but that's not as relevant to this). Skeleton King is easy and simple, but Drow/Sniper is simple but not easy. This is what I'm trying to avoid here to some degree.


    Edits:
    Everyone seems to think Lycan is easy enough, so I put him in recommended.
    Added Sven, I think I just forgot about him the first time around since he isn't in the rejected list either.
    Last edited by winxp; 05-28-2012 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #2
    Lycan is easy as to play. First time I played him I did pretty well, this was in an SD game. The wolves realistically dont require uber micro except in extreme circumstances, and most of the time when they arise you can just escape with ulti

  3. #3
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    I have found the recommended starting hero's function to be great (I've only played around 10 games). Once I started using it I was getting positive scores and started having a lot more fun playing. I have found Zeus, Skeleton King, Lion and Shadow Shaman to all be pretty noob friendly. I plan on continuing through the list until I've completed it and then moving on to other hero's. The only one I have had difficulty with so far is Faceless Void, I don't know what it was I just couldn't live or get a kill (maybe take a look if he should be on the list). Definitely keep a function like this in the game and point it out to beginners and in your tutorial.

    Also the card style selection screen is a bit overwhelming. I recommending going back to your grid view or a mix of both.

    I'll let you no how the other hero's work out for me on the list.

  4. #4
    Faceless Void has to farm to get good. Getting enough farm is always difficult for newer players

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    I have found the recommended starting hero's function to be great (I've only played around 10 games). Once I started using it I was getting positive scores and started having a lot more fun playing. I have found Zeus, Skeleton King, Lion and Shadow Shaman to all be pretty noob friendly. I plan on continuing through the list until I've completed it and then moving on to other hero's. The only one I have had difficulty with so far is Faceless Void, I don't know what it was I just couldn't live or get a kill (maybe take a look if he should be on the list). Definitely keep a function like this in the game and point it out to beginners and in your tutorial.

    Also the card style selection screen is a bit overwhelming. I recommending going back to your grid view or a mix of both.

    I'll let you no how the other hero's work out for me on the list.
    Can you also provide how much experience and knowledge you have before you start using the recommended starting heroes?
    Things like having played similar genre, reading guides, friend coaching and roles?
    Thank you. (I'm just interested)

  6. #6
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    Sniper's 2nd skill makes it kind of easy to farm and he just needs treads/phase boots and a shadow blade and he's reasonably save and Drow's attack animation isn't horrible, she can last hit fine and easily, I disagree with Jugger and especially morph, Morph needs super lotta farm to be effective and jugger maybe but not really, i dun like dk there he also needs a sh*t load of farm, the recommended heroes should be carries that are quite effective without a lot of items, like a semi carry or sometimes a simple carry is applicable

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsoluteNoob View Post
    Can you also provide how much experience and knowledge you have before you start using the recommended starting heroes?
    Things like having played similar genre, reading guides, friend coaching and roles?
    Thank you. (I'm just interested)
    My prior experience is around 5 matches of the original DoTA for Frozen Throne(probably 7 years ago) and around 15 matches of HoN(2 years ago). I have asked for some help during matches like what KP_7 meant and found out it was the number pad, or you have to hold down alt on mini map to ping(it can be a life saver). Also had to learn you need to make a normal courier before a flying one. I've looked on the DOTA2 Wiki for a little help the past 2 days. I've found you can usually find someone to give you a quick answer during a match if you have a question, so the community seems to be pretty good.

    Also some RTS experience from Starcraft Boodwar and SC2 helps I think.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehIce View Post
    Sniper's 2nd skill makes it kind of easy to farm and he just needs treads/phase boots and a shadow blade and he's reasonably save and Drow's attack animation isn't horrible, she can last hit fine and easily, I disagree with Jugger and especially morph, Morph needs super lotta farm to be effective and jugger maybe but not really, i dun like dk there he also needs a sh*t load of farm, the recommended heroes should be carries that are quite effective without a lot of items, like a semi carry or sometimes a simple carry is applicable
    As for sniper's first passive, unreliable damage doesn't make farming easier. You don't time a lasthit such that you would have to hit a headshot to get it. Lothars is a garbage item, although it might work in the levels of play where people would need hero recommendations. In addition, you'll likely get ganked multiple times before you get the farm for it, especially if it's a new player who will have trouble farming.

    Drow's attack point is tied for the second worst in the game, so I'd say it's pretty horrible. Saying that you can last hit fine is irrelevant. I can last hit with techies, but that doesn't matter because this is for new players. If someone is used to very short attack points from other games, they're not going to want to deal with .7s.

    As for the other heroes, the recommendations can't all be perfect. I think DK is on there because he's tanky and has a good disable. I put morph on my list because he at least has an escape mech, and jugg has a lot of potential for early kills so he doesn't have to sit there ricing. I'm open to other suggestions, though. I just couldn't find better ones out of the radiant agi tavern, and I wouldn't want it be too devoid of recommended heroes.

    In general, I think that this is a legitimate concern. Newcomers need good recommendations for easy heroes in order to minimize their chances of failure. Nobody wants to have to deal with a new player picking one of these heroes, failing at farming, failing at building, getting ganked repeatedly, and in general not performing as well as they would with a different hero all because it was one of the recommended ones.


    Edit: I'd like to reply to this post as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    I have found the recommended starting hero's function to be great (I've only played around 10 games). Once I started using it I was getting positive scores and started having a lot more fun playing. I have found Zeus, Skeleton King, Lion and Shadow Shaman to all be pretty noob friendly. I plan on continuing through the list until I've completed it and then moving on to other hero's. The only one I have had difficulty with so far is Faceless Void, I don't know what it was I just couldn't live or get a kill (maybe take a look if he should be on the list). Definitely keep a function like this in the game and point it out to beginners and in your tutorial.

    Also the card style selection screen is a bit overwhelming. I recommending going back to your grid view or a mix of both.

    I'll let you no how the other hero's work out for me on the list.
    I think most of the recommended heroes are good recommendations. Void just needs a lot of farm and is a lategame hero, but I think he could also be removed from the list. He has one of the abilities with the potential to screw your team, so having a noob void player can be even worse than a noob sniper player. The only reason I can think of him being on the list is the fact that he has an escape. If that's the criteria, I'd rather have AM on the list since he has a better blink and can come online faster.
    Last edited by winxp; 05-26-2012 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Basic Member mindfaQ's Avatar
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    I also wondered what Sniper and Drow had to do within the beginner pool.
    specs for bugreports:
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  10. #10
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    They recommended CM for beginners... paper hero with slow speed... And then people complain that they end 0/200

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