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Thread: Balancing hero roles (LOTSA READING)

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Balancing hero roles within the Hero Card System (UPDATE 2)

    HEROES' ROLE TABLE || Here's the tooltip description for the new (sub)categories
    Go to "View > List" on the top left corner, this way you can sort and filter the table! Try this during real pick scenario!

    TL;DR: The roles associated to heroes in the Hero Card system is not very informative. This is made to improve it with (hopefully) community effort.

    OVERHAUL UPDATE 2.1
    1. Primary roles are now 'linked' with Tools and Assets.
    2. Added 2 new categories and 11 new sub-categories.
    3. Each heroes now can only have up to 4 categories (excluding linked)
    4. Removal of category "Versatile" and revamped Carry sub-categories.
    5. Color coding re-purposed because I'm too lazy to keep track.
    => Click here to see why I made those changes <=

    2.1 update: Beautified UI, "Tools" changed to "Assets"


    OVERHAUL UPDATE 1.2
    1. Now every hero will support up to five categories.
    2. NEW! Sub-categories for "Carry", "Support", "Durable", "Laning" and "Finisher".
    3. All heroes return to 1st revision (except those unedited from Valve's rating)
    => Click here to see why I made those changes <=

    1.1 Update: Added new category for Durable (Reduction)
    1.2 Update: Added new categories for Ganker (Late | Assist)



    MANUAL
    Categories
    You can read more about the new (sub)categories added here (which is also provided on top):
    Carry - (NORMAL) | Farmer
    Support - Full | Utility | Passive
    Initiator - Direct | Post
    Ganker - (NORMAL) | Late | Assist
    Nuker - Magical | Physical
    Laning - Babysitter | Self
    Durable - Natural | Built | Tank | Reduction
    Crippler - Exhaust | Arcane | Weaken
    Escape - Mobility | Invisibility | Unorthodox
    Finisher - Chaser | Sniper

    Primary role linking
    Primary role: Job best suited for selected hero.
    Linked T&A: Traits and assets that makes the hero suited for the primary role.
    Non-linked: Extras that this hero is capable of doing.
    Hero Card appearance changes needed to satisfy this addition:

    Picture to the left: Yellow ring around the first pip signifies primary role. When moused over it displays a tool tip shown on the right image.
    Picture to the right: Showing linked categories and its ranks.


    Search Logic
    These are changes required on Valve's part, take these as suggestions.
    Sub-categories are basically the usual categories with more detailed info. Doesn't affect filtering.
    Example: If I filter 'Ganker', everything 'Ganker' will show up (this means including Late and Assists).
    Filtering exceptions: Support (Passive), Durable (Reduction), Laning (Self).
    Reasons are because these subcategories don't really match the category players usually are looking for.

    Primary role linked T&A will show up in filter results.
    However I would highly suggest that to include multiple filters and rank filters.
    A checklist should do the trick. No browser based please.



    MAIN BODY:
    I have no idea how Valve decide on hero role rankings, but I'm sure there are "flaws" left and right.
    Therefore, this mini project is made! To help improve the system and allow clearer role playing instructions.
    Guesses are that Valve made these for newcomers and role filtering during pick phase.
    Currently, the role(s) assigned to the heroes are rather trash and makes some hero look REAL bad on paper.

    The contents of this suggestion is not publicly editable by anyone. So if you need to change something, post here.
    I will take a look, reply to you to see whether I agree or not, and take action accordingly. (Also I have a busy life)
    I hope for this to become a community effort, so fire your feedbacks away!

    A few notes to take care:
    -"roles" and now divided into ROLES | TRAITS| ASSETS (which we will call categories)
    -Each hero can only have up to 4 categories thanks to the card system. Most crucial ones are prioritized.
    -Designed primarily for new players to have a glimpse of what a hero can do. And choose accordance to their liking.
    -All heroes look rather "balanced" in ratings, on paper, while staying true to their play style. No fake stats.
    -Ranks of 'Primary role linked categories' does not count towards total rating, but will decide whether +1 is needed.
    -Based on one's "optimum build", this means the roles stated are based off orthodox conditions.

    Ganker
    No idea why Valve removed this role, is it because its too common that any hero can gank?
    Why not make this role strictly for heroes that specialise in ganking at lv6 / first night?
    Bloodseeker being a carry and jungler is ... awkward.

    Crippler
    Skills that satisfy this tag: Silence, disarm, damage absorb, blind, mana burn, stat steal, purge.
    Basically those that prevent the opposing from being able to do everything. Stun, hex and slow doesn't count.

    Finisher
    Any hero that can give chase VERY well or kill globally is considered. This means able to shrug off stuns and still kill.
    Simple slow / stun not considered chasing power.


    TOTALLY OUTDATED STUFF THATS NOT YET DELETED:

    How ranking works: (From 1 star to 3 stars)
    Carry: Semi carry | Carry | Hard Carry
    Support: Candidate | Good | Ward Bitch
    Initiator: Pre/Post initiators | Great | Walking ultimates
    Pusher: generic aoe | decent| solo pushers
    Ganker: Can attempt | specialize | no ward = you die
    Jungler: Can lane properly | farms off jungle | OWNS the jungle
    Versatile: Too many 1s | All rounded hero | Invoker
    Disabler: 1 unreliable stun | 1 reliable stun | disable monster
    Durable: Built tanky | Natural tankers | whack last
    L. Support: basic harrassers | babysitters | CPS
    Nuker: <500 | <1000 | 1000> (in 10 seconds with maxed nukes)
    Escape: basic maneuver | effective| Just try and chase me
    Crippler: 1 skill | annoying | cant do shit
    Finisher: assist chases| Mobile chaser | Global butt rape
    Last edited by AbsoluteNoob; 07-20-2012 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #2
    good idea

  3. #3
    First off, I really do appreciate the amount of effort you have put into this.

    But well, regardless of how much you try, you simply wont be able to translate what a hero does all that well onto numbers and stats on paper. For instance, sniper is a beastly laner that can take anybody on (2009 smm finals game 1) with certain playstyle but is usually a really bad solo laner. He is also one of the strongest carries in game (Burning vs Hao AM and MU CK game). But he usually doesn't reach the point where he can do that. He can actually push really well too simply because he doesn't get in tower range when he hits it and because of shrapnel. But that's again not really something you can tell a newbie. It has to come with experience. And by messing around and failing and watching lots of games etc.

    Good luck though.

    Before you point out that my post was useless, I definitely am arguing that Sniper is far better than just a 2 star carry alright.

  4. #4
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    I've been thinking about some other roles as well, how about harrassers and finishers. Harrassers being heroes that are especially good at, well, harrassing, while finishers are heroes that are good at chasing down or finishing wounded enemies who barely managed to escape a team fight(bloodseeker, sniper, zeus etc.)

    Oh and btw, what does lane suport mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simum View Post
    I've been thinking about some other roles as well, how about harrassers and finishers. Harrassers being heroes that are especially good at, well, harrassing, while finishers are heroes that are good at chasing down or finishing wounded enemies who barely managed to escape a team fight(bloodseeker, sniper, zeus etc.)

    Oh and btw, what does lane suport mean?
    Lane supports are basically babysitters, who also does job at harassing.
    Finishers / chasers could work, but I'll see if I could find enough heroes to distribute those points.
    (Gimme a day or 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4saken.infinity View Post
    Before you point out that my post was useless, I definitely am arguing that Sniper is far better than just a 2 star carry alright.
    I'll wait for other's opinions on this. Sniper is particularly hard to deal with due to the fact that his always far back during a fight.

  6. #6
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    I took a brief look at your sheet, and the problem is:

    While reading, I had many things I thought "that hero would deserve a 1-2 in here as well", then realized it alrewady has 4 categories. E.g. CM can push, DS can push and gank.

    The problem is a lot of heroes are more versatile than the categories allow, and whatever description you give, it will always miss parts. While this isn't crucial for normal players that can adapt, it is bad especially in the learning phase, where I imagine this to have the biggest use.

    Also I would really like to e.g. filter the heroes for "initiator" if my team needs one, but currently I can not use the feature because I'm afraid the system hides some good ones and shows up useless ones. This will never be flawless, and when it isn't it doesn't have much use imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilzquadrat View Post
    While reading, I had many things I thought "that hero would deserve a 1-2 in here as well", then realized it alrewady has 4 categories. E.g. CM can push, DS can push and gank.

    The problem is a lot of heroes are more versatile than the categories allow, and whatever description you give, it will always miss parts. While this isn't crucial for normal players that can adapt, it is bad especially in the learning phase, where I imagine this to have the biggest use.

    Also I would really like to e.g. filter the heroes for "initiator" if my team needs one, but currently I can not use the feature because I'm afraid the system hides some good ones and shows up useless ones. This will never be flawless, and when it isn't it doesn't have much use imo.
    It is true that it will NEVER EVER EVER be flawless, but your stated points are rather lacking.

    The 4 categories are reserved for the heroes' strongest assets; those minors, are therefore not mentioned.
    If a hero can do too much, then thats what "versatile" is for.
    Theoretically speaking, anybody with a stun or slow can gank, just how well one can? Same goes for AoE and pushing.

    Beginners who are learning will know what kind of hero to pick for what kind of style they are currently interested in.
    They will probably start with the 3 stars and work their way down (or not), but this is at least something rather than nothing.

    For the filtering part, since the four categories are reserved for the bests, if you filter initiators the best ones will show up.
    Some "not so great" ones will show up as well, because some points are rather "fillers" to balance out "rating points".

    The table is not perfect now, this is why I'm taking any feedback.

  8. #8
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    Crippler doesn't sound very well for me, just the name, not the concept. The concept you came up with is quite damn impressive, I should say, my only other complaint would be that Gyro should have a 2 in Versatility, and AA is hardly that much of a real ward bitch though what the hell do I know.
    Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_n00b View Post
    Crippler doesn't sound very well for me, just the name, not the concept.
    I thought the same thing. I was thing Disruption or Soft Disables.
    Hello, I'm Fydorian! I have Trouble getting even one cs per minute, so I help find bugs instead!
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsoluteNoob View Post
    Ganker
    No idea why Valve removed this role, is it because its too common that any hero can gank?
    Why not make this role strictly for heroes that specialise in ganking at lv6 / first night?
    Bloodseeker being a carry and jungler is ... awkward.
    This, Ganker is a very important role, I have no idea why did they remove it. It needs to be there.
    Quote Originally Posted by vladhood View Post
    boy im glad all these qualified and educated game designers have come to the forums to help dota 2 grow

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