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Thread: Bots too difficult for casual learner

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WutangSavesXmas View Post
    Why are bot teammates so different from enemy bots? Teammate bots do not cooperate at all while enemy bots have perfect coordination. It's to the point where I just play with cheats on and give myself gold if some bullshit happens

    They also buy way too many TP scrolls, real players never buy them that often on average
    Actually the problem is that real players should buy more TP scrolls.
    The main issue with TP scrolls and bots is that they're fairly bad at managing TP scrolls. They keep going to the side shop to get TP scrolls right after teleporting to a lane. Instead of that, it'd be better if they just buy 2 before TP'ing, so they don't need to waste their time going to a side shop and possibly putting themselves in danger.

    In regards to differences in behaviour between allied and enemy bots, that'd be because the bots can communicate with each other and decide upon a common goal, where as the bots on your team merely attempt to interpret what you're trying to do and react accordingly.
    Personally I think this 'hivemind' should be removed, I think it would reveal some flaws in how the AI interprets player actions as well if the AIs start to try and interpret each others actions, which would improve over all bot AI.

  2. #12
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    Post Bump?

    It's a long rant, but I signed up here just to post this.

    I had this exact same problem. I've never played anything like Dota or Lol before (hell, I've only ever played one SC match), but I signed up for this because it was there. Getting in is so unbelievably hard. There is no tutorial (I had to exit the game and go find a tutorial on Youtube), and practising on the bots is absolute hell. Sure, Passive is playable, but the bots don't actually do anything. 'Easier' is supposed to be a difficulty setting for beginners who know how to move around and cast, but need to learn how to lane, last hit, deny, and use their abilities properly. We can't do that if the bots deny pretty much 100% of the time, if they're there, and they have amazing teamwork when they play aggressively. They move in at the same time before one stuns you and another one nukes you, etc. Defensively, they're a bit weaker, but generally another hero's on hand to instantly respond, upon which the hero that was previously assaulted immediately switches back to full-out aggression to kill you.

    Sure, that's how the game's meant to be played, but not at a beginner level. When we get attacked by heroes, everyone else runs away. At our level, we struggle to escape from one bot. I was (and am) still trying to get used to the mouse movement and hotkey usage, but it feels impossible when suddenly you're dead within one second. Most of the time, you don't even know how you died, because attacks come so quick. I could understand if the bots worked together on 'Normal' and even to a very limited extent on 'Easy', but not on 'Easier'. In the few bot matches I've played, not once have we made it through without anyone ragequitting, and I've found myself the only player left in the server 2 to three times out of less than ten. Add to that the fact that communication between the bots is flawless when they aren't comboing your ass off to Mars. Zeus' ulti comes out the very instant a hero's is in the KO zone, and they very quickly respond to empty lanes and the bots know how to blink in while another is attacking you. Again, while it's how you're meant to play the game, it's not how the game is played by players of that skill level. I just feel that the bot's AI designers have missed this crucial point.

    I'm sure Dota's a wonderful game, but what's the point in having such a great PvP game if the learning curve (which is already steep) is made even steeper because you haven't provided new players with the necessary tools to learn how to play? In the only two games we managed to win, we had one or two players who knew exactly what they were doing and who also had ganking classes who snowballed away, but even then, they literally carried the rest of the team, which was still all lower levelled compared to that of the bots. In fact, the bots outscored the human team by more than 2:1 when we won, and when we lost, it was, at it's best, 5:1.

    The sad thing is that a friend of mine who used to play a bit of dota and who plays LoL also had a lot of difficulty with the bots. Less difficulty, certainly (he actually got kills), but he got killed a lot more than he killed.

    TL;DR Skill level of the bots from Passive to Easier has too much of a jump because the people writing the AI assume new people already know how every aspect of the game works and are readily inclined to work together as a cohesive team.

    I never had much of a reason to pick up dota. An (aforementioned) friend's been trying to get me to try LoL out for a bit, and so when the beta came out I thought I've signed up for it. I hope PvP is worth it, because learning how dota works has not been an easy experience, or a fun one.

  3. #13
    Basic Member GMan's Avatar
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    Well so far I've taught about five people how to play this game. Only one gave up on it completely but that was because he was also trying to learn from his brother who is a terrible teacher. I've found that letting someone play Drow Ranger on passive difficulty, while I tell them what items to buy is a great introduction to the basics. I talk them through a lot of the more advanced mechanics such as last hitting and denying. Since passive bots don't use skills, Drow's Frost Arrows are perfect for learning about how to effectively kill enemy heroes. The items for her are basic but provide noticeable damage increase while also showing some basic usage of items. After this, I take them to Easy difficulty where I teach them about the middle lane. Usually I have them chose Viper since he's similar to Drow while also being able to dominate the middle lane with relative ease.

    50% of the learning process though is me explaining things, so learning how to play without a teacher is next to impossible. I'm not sure how detailed the tutorial is going to be considering how much information is needed, but there should still be an option to learn from a coach. Not only could it be faster, but it could also be a lot easier to see someone else do something and then repeat what they did.

  4. #14
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    ive played a few bot games... and it seems like the bots are very responsive... which helps them a lot in the laning phase but once the game develops, the humans tend to just roll them..

    so maybe tell him to play safe early and just get into the mid-late game intact before making any big plays (will probably help him in normal mming aswell)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WutangSavesXmas View Post
    They also buy way too many TP scrolls, real players never buy them that often on average
    good players do. With my experience against bots, I think the tps that the bots buy are both reasonable and adequate.
    In fact, if new players see the bots buying that many tps and are encouraged to do so themselves, it's a great step in educating said new players.
    Hello, I'm Fydorian! I have Trouble getting even one cs per minute, so I help find bugs instead!
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    This has been a PSA by yours truely, Fydorian.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosshack View Post

    I was (and am) still trying to get used to the mouse movement and hotkey usage, but it feels impossible when suddenly you're dead within one second. Most of the time, you don't even know how you died, because attacks come so quick.
    I remember this feeling. Very common one when you start playing, "What just happened to me, how did I die?"

    The problem with playing against bots is that it is not good to learn how the game works. The only true way to learn how to play dota is by having someone with you who explains how the game works.

    This is why I think for new players the tutorial section that has not been developped yet should be primarily just explanations to how the game works with you on a small map with a hero. Similar to the TF2 tutorials in that small room with cardboard cutouts. Because there is just so much information a player needs to be half-decent at the game, and it is impossible for anyone to learn it effienciently and quickly by themselves against bots.

    DotA truly is a game where you need real guidance to learn how to play. It is not a game that you just get good at playing by yourself never referring to guides or other (good) players.

  7. #17
    Basic Member Zath's Avatar
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    I would suggest that you set 2 of the enemy team bots to passive, and three to easier. That way you wont get as much of the perfect timing in lane since the passive ones wont cast.

  8. #18
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    For most of the development of bots, the focus was on making them as challenging as possible, since that's probably the most difficult problem to solve. We're still spending a fair amount of time on that (particularly mid-to-late game where they tend to fall apart), but we'll also continue to work on making the easier bot difficulties more welcoming to new players.

    In particular, if you find them doing any specific thing that you think they shouldn't (denying towers is a good example), please post it here! I can also extend the ability lockout timers, which should make their skill usage much less frequent.
    Last edited by ChrisC; 06-28-2012 at 01:31 PM.

  9. #19
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    those are few things makes bots difficult for new players;

    first they are very coordinated and have perfect timings, they ganks pretty often and after early game they go everywhere as a group.

    and they doing those on easy difficulty.

    but another thing is bots still too easy against good-moderate players,when game became too long they dont have enough damage(4 bot buys support items 1 carry) , they stop pushing after 1 tower down and go other lane or gank or roshan, gives time for enemy team.

    I hope bots became harder for advanced players and easier for new players with more difficult options.

  10. #20
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    It's just that I found your post on what the difficulty settings entail, and I'll post them here for 'Easy':
    Easy
    Reaction times for ability/item usage range from 200-300ms.
    Last-hitting has a 400ms window of random timing uncertainty.
    Bots do not try to avoid overlapping stuns.
    Bots do not deny creeps.
    Bots do not harass.
    Bots do not roam or gank.
    Bots do not try to interrupt channels.
    Bots will not use Force Staff, Orchid, or Phase Boots.
    Bots do not try to avoid linear projectiles.
    Bots never figure out that a hero is an illusion.
    Bots will try to avoid forming groups of larger than 3.

    My experience when playing on 'Easier':
    Reaction times for ability/item usage range from 200-300ms. I find that this still holds true on 'Easier', or that they seem to have insanely quick response times, even when 'distracted'
    Last-hitting has a 400ms window of random timing uncertainty. Not sure about this, but they are at least decent at last hitting
    Bots do not try to avoid overlapping stuns. I die to quick to notice this
    Bots do not deny creeps. This only seemed to happen in one or two matches, so I might have screwed up in finding a bot match, but for those the creep denial was pretty much spot-on
    Bots do not harass. True, they just kill you
    Bots do not roam or gank. When playing, the guys I was playing with got ganked very often, especially later in the game. Roaming was only done in packs and later on in the game, though
    Bots do not try to interrupt channels. Do TP scrolls count as a channel? Just wondering
    Bots will not use Force Staff, Orchid, or Phase Boots. Did not notice.
    Bots do not try to avoid linear projectiles. Did not notice.
    Bots never figure out that a hero is an illusion. Did not notice.
    Bots will try to avoid forming groups of larger than 3. At the endgame the bots pretty much roamed around in groups of three or more. It was rare to see one bot (or even two) moving around alone.

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