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Thread: Skeleton king ult not activating

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viperus View Post
    If you watch it in super slow motion, you'll actually see that, hp and mp swap instantly, ulti stops being greyed out and I get killed a split scond later.

    If the theory about the game engine doing only 1 thing at a time is correct, sk ult should work.
    The engine can do several things in the matter of fractions of a second. It's evident that SK died before gaining the mana because his ult didn't go off, and the ability box is faded out. The soul ring was just triggered to give SK mana after he was dead, which I suppose is a seperate, visual, bug.

    And it's not a theory. Computers just do very many things very quickly, one at a time. Nothing can happen "at once". Even if we're talking about every player having their own instance of the game (and thus each computer is calculating seperately the graphics and communicating with the server, etc. at the same time), the server can only process one action at a given moment, but at very many actions per given unit of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkittlesAreYum View Post
    I would expect the health and mana changes to occur at the same time. Strictly speaking you're right that the engine can only do one thing at a time, but in general an engine it could flag those two actions as occurring at the same time, which would prevent the shatter from intervening between them. I don't know if the Dota 2 engine has that capability though.
    It's completely possible that this isn't intended, and it could be fixed in several ways, including just having shatter check for the soul ring hp removal and wait until the mana has been given before issuing shatter damage, but is it really neccisary? I'd say it's working fine - I'm assuming that in every other case where someone soul rings into shatter range, they die before getting mana (SK's the only one that could really make use of it though), but I'm not a developer.
    Last edited by Fydorian; 06-19-2012 at 06:25 AM.
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Fydorian View Post
    And it's not a theory. Computers just do very many things very quickly, one at a time. Nothing can happen "at once". Even if we're talking about every player having their own instance of the game (and thus each computer is calculating seperately the graphics and communicating with the server, etc. at the same time), the server can only process one action at a given moment, but at very many actions per given unit of time.
    What you say is true at an academic level (only one bitwise operation can be executed at once per core), but when it comes to designing operating systems, game engines, etc. it doesn't really apply. Operating systems contain many mechanisms for enforcing timing as desired, and thus a hero could change HP and mana at exactly the same time as far as the game engine is concerned. Sure he may have lost the HP at 50000 microseconds and the mana at 50001 microseconds, but the game engine could enforce that no other spells, effects, damage, etc. can execute during that time. If nothing else can happen during the minuscule delay then it effectively did happen at the same time.

    Now, obviously they don't have it implemented like this. I'm just saying they could, but it depends on the amount of work to implement (which I can't guess at because I don't know the source code) or whether they even consider it a bug.

  3. #13
    Basic Member DarkLite's Avatar
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    Enough theorycrafting, time for some actual data.

    When you die in the replay, SK's max health is 891. Ice Blast is level 1, which means it triggers at 10% of max HP. So SK will shatter if his health drops between 89.1 while frostbitten.

    In the log:

    [18:23.08] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Cold Feet for 64 damage (362->298).
    [18:23.51] Skeleton King receives Sacrifice buff from Skeleton King.
    [18:23.61] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 10 damage (147->137).
    [18:23.98] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Cold Feet for 64 damage (136->72).
    [18:23.98] Skeleton King loses Sacrifice buff.
    [18:23.98] Skeleton King loses Cold Feet debuff.
    [18:23.98] Skeleton King loses Frostbitten debuff.
    [18:23.98] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 72 damage (72->0).
    [18:23.98] Skeleton King is killed by Ancient Apparition's Ice Blast.

    At 18:23.51, Soul Ring is used. SK loses 150 health from his current health of 298, leaving him on 147 health - above the Shatter threshold. The mana is awarded at the same time.

    At 18:23.98, Cold Feet brings SK below the Shatter threshold, immediately triggering his death. All buffs/debuffs are removed at the same time.

    In other words, this is a bug. Soul ring is activated 47ms before the fatal damage tick occurs and gives the mana, but Reincarnate is not triggered when he dies half a second later.

    (on a side note, how did everyone miss this in the log?)

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLite View Post
    (on a side note, how did everyone miss this in the log?)
    I think I misread the slider that designates how far back the log goes. I could have sworn I saw the soul ring debuff immediatly before the 72 ice blast damage, but I seem to have erred. Sometimes it sucks to be human. I'm probably the only one that bothered looking at the log and I read it wrong, so...

    Anyway, back on track, what do you think caused SK not to revive? The fact that his ulty was "faded out" as to say he had no mana when he died seems indicative that soul ring didn't even activate.

    Based on the log, it's because ice blast removed his bonus mana, right? When SK lost his Sacrifice buff. I don't think ice blast is supposed to purge you when it kills you... or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkittlesAreYum View Post
    What you say is true at an academic level (only one bitwise operation can be executed at once per core), but when it comes to designing operating systems, game engines, etc. it doesn't really apply.
    Forgive me for slight inaccuracies. I haven't looked much into it, but was trying to share my rudimentary understanding. Even if computing is fundamentaly different, I know for a fact that (most?) game engines work in "steps" and was trying to convey that. Yes, it's true that the steps don't have to work like that, but I was trying to argue that in any other situation, ice blast shatter is reactive and checks every line to see if the hero is below their threshold based on max hp and then deals damage imediately as the next action. In other words, there's nothing wrong with ice blast killing sk before he got mana. If that's actually what even happened.
    Last edited by Fydorian; 06-19-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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  5. #15
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    from playdota:

    iceblast: Fatal damage is 100000000 physical and clears all debuffs prior damaging.

    using soul ring should give you a buff which is the thing giving you the mana, it seems that soul ring mana is incorrectly set as a debuff in dota2? or is every buff/debuff supposed to be dispelled by iceblast?

  6. #16
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    Another explanation:
    In general if the mana is not used, it will vanish again.
    Perhaps with the Ulti Debuff, he lost the Mana premature and was back on his old mana level, lacking mana for his ulti. The following killing blow therefore killed him

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AREUHAPPYNOW View Post
    from playdota:

    iceblast: Fatal damage is 100000000 physical and clears all debuffs prior damaging.

    using soul ring should give you a buff which is the thing giving you the mana, it seems that soul ring mana is incorrectly set as a debuff in dota2? or is every buff/debuff supposed to be dispelled by iceblast?
    Yes, I think the real question for the mod/devs is: is ice blast shatter supposed to remove Sacrifice (and the mana from it)? If so, working as intended, if not then it's a bug.
    Hello, I'm Fydorian! I have Trouble getting even one cs per minute, so I help find bugs instead!
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fydorian View Post
    Based on the log, it's because ice blast removed his bonus mana, right? When SK lost his Sacrifice buff. I don't think ice blast is supposed to purge you when it kills you... or is it?
    I think you're onto something here. If Ice Blast removes the buff then no reincarnation. The question is, are buffs normally removed just before death or is Ice Blast a special case here?

  9. #19
    Volunteer Moderator DLRevan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkittlesAreYum View Post
    I think you're onto something here. If Ice Blast removes the buff then no reincarnation. The question is, are buffs normally removed just before death or is Ice Blast a special case here?
    The buff should not be removed by shatter.

    However, judging from my test, it seems its being removed by the shatter killing blow in Dota 2, or at least the mana provided by soul ring is being ignored:

    [05:21.07] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 187 damage (676->489).
    [05:21.44] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 9 damage (488->479).
    [05:21.70] Skeleton King receives Sacrifice buff from Skeleton King.
    [05:22.04] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King for 82 damage (328->246).
    [05:22.44] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 9 damage (246->237).
    [05:23.04] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King for 87 damage (236->149).
    [05:23.44] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 9 damage (149->140).
    [05:24.04] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King for 84 damage (139->55).
    [05:24.07] Ancient Apparition hits Skeleton King with Ice Blast for 55 damage (55->0).
    [05:24.07] Skeleton King is killed by Ancient Apparition's Ice Blast.


    As long as shatter killing blow is the cause of death, soul ring mana seems to be ignored. Axe's culling blade does not have this problem.

    Added to sticky.
    Last edited by DLRevan; 06-19-2012 at 01:12 PM.
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