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Thread: Pentagram and Satanic in DotA

  1. #1

    Pentagram and Satanic in DotA

    I would like to start a discussion about these item and the pentagram graphic in DotA. Please keep it civil: this is intented as a serious discussion on the subject. Any flamewar starting or igniting posts will be reported to the mods immideately, and I except them to be taken care of.

    The question of this thread is to not question each others religion or lack of religion thereof: I presume we all have our reasons to believe or not to believe, what those reasons are, and wether they be good reasons or not, is not relevant in anyway to this discussion we're having. I've cleared this now upfront, so don't try and bring them to this context and discussion we're having now, please. Thank you.

    Now let us take a look at the symbols "Pentagram." Historically, Pentagrams have been used in various religious rituals from what I know of, and are even common practice of some Wiccans today. This sign is clearly not of christian origin, even though it may have been used by "christians" in the past - by christians I mean people who were forced to convert into a Christianity, but were allowed to keep a part of their paganistic habitats. Now what's interesting to know is wether or not this has been used by x,y in the past when it comes to the revelance of this context into DotA; it's certain that the notion and usage of this pentagram is clearly derived from the common "devil worship" of our past or our CURRENT century, as this pentagram is the ultimate ability of the "Doom Bringer," who is called Lucifer A.K.A, the Satan.

    Even though I admit and know that the notion of "Lucifer" is based on a misintepration of a certain part in the bible, it doesn't matter: what matters is how this is wished to have been portrayed in the current DotA game as we know it, and it's also how I presume majority of the people understand it, becouse in current popular culture Lucifer is basically a Satan.

    Im going to draw an example, it's from my old language here in Finland. It's a teaching from my old man, who used to say, that he won't quit saying "nigga's" "nigga's," becouse to him, he had grown with the concept that, nigger basically meant a black person and to him, there was nothing offensive in it.

    However, there's also the a fact that if certain world is used in the wrong context too often, then it may as well become a curse word. Such is the case of the "nigga" world in our Finnish culture. There weren't many somalians in our country before, but there are now, and as such, this has even become an issue of a political correctness. So I believe this word has actually changed it's meaning: from a neutral word describing a black person, to a racist word portraying a black person.

    As such you can clearly see that, worlds change in our different culture if they are used in certain context too often. Same is for Lucifer: term means the "light-bringer" and the place in bible may not neccessarily describe Satan, but becouse the concept of "Lucifer" has been used in our common culture so much as a description of Satan, the meaning of this word has changed. Such is the case for the N word in my country, the Lucifer words, and presumably alot of other words to come.

    Now I just wanted to clear up that front so we don't have to have discussing about the meanings of the word, or meanings of the Pentagram becouse it's obvious that in the context of this game, they are used to describe a devilish being and are thus connected to the biblical satan as well in our current popular culture.

    Now what is the point then? Someone can say: Nobody cares. But I care. I want to ask, is it really neccessary to keep in game such unoriginal reference to a malevolent real-life being? I mean, could we be more original, and would more originality hurt us in the long run? Im not saying im personally offended by the name Lucifer in game. But I don't pick him either. So it's kind of like 50/50. It's more of me not wanting to promote the usage of unoriginality. In Diablo 3, the developers drifted from the original plan to use pentagrams for the same creativity reasons:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashiok
    Bashiok: A lot of what we do now and have been doing for the past... 8 or so years, around the Warcraft III and initial World of Warcraft development era, is putting a lot of effort into crafting unique worlds. Meaning that we put more effort into every aspect of the game world itself. Who is this secret organization? What is their history? What’s their look? Do they have a specific accent? Do they have a symbol or mark that can identify them?

    In the previous games I think there was a sense of “Oh it’s a demon, Diablo, devil, Satan, satanism… pentagram!” and while certainly there are those influences, what we’re creating now and have been creating for quite some time is evolving the game world and making something more complete. A complete world where every aspect is fully realized, maybe even if it doesn’t show up in the game.
    I think that same sort of world-crafting can be seen between Warcraft II and Warcraft III. A big shift in focus to fleshing out a unique fantasy world and story.
    http://www.diablowiki.net/Pentagrams

    So what's stopping Valve from being more original in this matter? I would like to hear arguments from back and forth. Let the discussions begin.
    Last edited by Kaiverrettu; 07-06-2012 at 07:50 AM.

  2. #2
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    Dafuq did i just read 0_o

  3. #3
    Basic Member DarkLite's Avatar
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    I thought you said you were quitting this forum after your latest troll thread was poorly received?

    edit: LOL, you got banned at PD?
    Last edited by DarkLite; 07-06-2012 at 07:48 AM.

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    DOTA no longer limited to the Warcraft 3 engine, there's now unlimited possibilities for hero design. I don't see why you're complaining about Valve not creating "original content" when right now they're merely porting content that was limited in its creation by the engine it was on. Your concern is solely focused on Doom, too, instead of any other heroes, so why are you dragging the entire game under criticism? Doom wasn't added to upset or drive away Christians. Were any of the exposed women created to provoke fundamentalist Islam? Should Atheists feel offended by the likes of Chen and Omniknight? Any problem you have with a fictional character is personal just like your religious beliefs should be, so sort it out on your own terms.
    Last edited by kirves; 07-06-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by kirves View Post
    DOTA no longer limited to the Warcraft 3 engine, there's now unlimited possibilities for hero design. I don't see why you're complaining about Valve not creating "original content" when right now they're merely porting content that was limited in its creation by the engine it was on. Your concern is solely focused on Doom, too, instead of any other heroes, so why are you dragging the entire game under criticism? Doom wasn't added to upset or drive away Christians. If they flee in horror, that's a problem of their maturity. Was any of the exposed women created to provoke Islam? Should Atheists feel offended by the likes of Chen and Omniknight? Any problem is personal just like your religious beliefs should be, so sort it out on your own terms.
    Well in my religion, Satan is real, I dunno about Islam. That's why it's so disturbing to see the mention of Satan in game, as well as forced to build them item Satanic from time to time(wich any Valve admins can check, I haven't built, or picked Lucifer except for once in like 200-300 games, so im NOT a liar or troll).
    Last edited by Kaiverrettu; 07-06-2012 at 08:01 AM.

  6. #6
    Basic Member DarkLite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu View Post
    Well in my religion, Satan is real, but I dunno about Islam aside from the basics. That's why it's so disturbing to see the mention of Satan in game, as well as forced to build them item Satanic from time to time(wich any Valve admins can check, I haven't built, or picked Lucifer except for once in like 200-300 games, so im NOT a liar or troll).
    "I find it disturbing to see a hero named after Zeus. I find this offensive to my religion. Please rename him."

    I'd like to think that would make you realise the flaw in your argument, but I'm almost certain it's been tried before.

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    Basic Member tortoos's Avatar
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    Sorry you feel that way, but you're obviously in the very small minority bothered by such things. I don't see why we should need to ruin doom bringer because he somehow offends a small group of people. If something was changed every time someone was offended we'd have nothing, much less some of the more controversial artwork of all time. People need to learn to deal with being offended. If you being offended directly impacts the lives of other people, then you need to get over yourself. Life's too short to be up in arms about stupid shit all the time.
    Last edited by tortoos; 07-06-2012 at 08:02 AM.

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    When a topic gets locked and closed and you're told not to discuss it, you don't just make a new one. It means to stop talking about it. Nobody wants a religious debate, and nobody (other than you) cares.

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    Okay? So what? The character in Defense of the Ancients is demonstrably fictional, and his existence in game is neither a promotion or rejection of Satan or Satanism. It's a theme that encompasses something. Again, this is a personal problem. Sort it out on your own. Maybe you should start instalocking Omniknight every time the enemy team runs Doom Bringer.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLite View Post
    "I find it disturbing to see a hero named after Zeus. I find this offensive to my religion. Please rename him."

    I'd like to think that would make you realise the flaw in your argument, but I'm almost certain it's been tried before.
    Christianity is significant becouse there are so many people who are convinced that Devil is a live. I don't believe there are enough Zeus worshippers to even make a case.
    Last edited by Kaiverrettu; 07-06-2012 at 09:13 AM.

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