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Thread: Add Traits, forget about Achievements

  1. #1
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    Add Traits, forget about Achievements

    The problem
    Every game has some sort of achievement system or reward system;
    Hero-skill bars are not as rewarding as an achievement; in fact they can be frustrating
    Commendation is rarely used (at least this is how i feel about it) and only for those who beg;
    Lack of support players; Current stats only benefit carrys, since the only measurable or countable stat is K/D/A and GPM/ExPM (carry based stat)
    No loser-consolation price; it gan get really frustrating to play an awesome match and yet lose

    A possible solution
    Add a trait system, forget about Achievemnts;

    Background
    I notice every time im about to launch dota2 that valve is expecting some sort of achievement system with really useless achievements (imo) like "eat three trees using tangos, or stuff like that. It is known that reward systems encourage gamers to keep on playing but i thing for a sport-like game like dota achievements are not what gamers need.

    Know your target
    Dota players are into for the sport-like feel we get, we are playing for the feel we get after a match is over and our experience about it (unlike rpg players who are there for the powercreep feeling). We want our team to win and we put ourselves our very best to make team work as a whole and lead it to good port. It is incredibly rewarding when your team wins as it is frustrating when it loses. The best experience dota players search for is the "after game" experience and not the "while playing" experience, its true that its a fun game and you can have tons of joy by simply playing, leveling and killing, but its the sum of all the "while playing" experiences during the match and the upcomming victory that you enjoy the most, and this is imo, a point to exploit. (i shall write another thread about this in the future, about how game ends to dramatically and the "after game" is "lost"; unless you are in party and/or add the guys you played with to a party)

    Traits: The idea
    The Trait system would be an after-game award for specific stuff you did well during the game. For example, if i successfully escaped X ammount of times from an almost certain death by using TP, or by dagging, or by getting into shadow and Tp, etc, i would get "Escape Artist" trait for that game and that game only. I came up with a bunch of Traits that could encourage skills over the K/D/A system which, is ok, but does not reflect the good player totally (reason for which you do not see many supports):

    All-seeing-eye Trait: for whom bought the greatest amount of obs, sentry, dust, gems in the game. (you need to have a minimum WPM to qualify; WPM = Wards per minute)
    Escape Artist Trait: i already mentioned this one in example avobe
    Disabler Trait: for whom disabled the most heroes during game (i guess a minimum DPM wil be needed and would depend on heros skills as well)
    Combat Medic Trait: for whom healed the most heroes damage points during game, this should count potions, meka, even tether
    Mana pool Trait: same as combat medic but for mana.
    Greed trait: for whom tacked the most neutral camps (minimum required to qualify)
    Fearless: for whom initiated the most teamfights or ganks (minimum is required too); i guess this one is really hard to implement, but i guess valve can do it
    Among others.

    Why this will help solving the original problem
    By adding Traits to the end of each game, you ensure your players will be rewarded (if aplicable), and, give them the satisfaction every reward gives (other than the regular chest and items which seem to be random). Unlike chest and items, these rewards are skill based, which are very rewarding (?) for the players, and not frustrating as the hero-bars -.- . Since this is an automatic system and not a player-opinion based (which, in the end, player-opinions are popularity contest and not actual skill tests), you remove the every-game commendation beggers (or not :P)
    Another important thing is that players will start valueing supports, if the game thinks supports are important, players will think so too, and many may start supporting in order to get these traits.
    The best part about this is that, no matter if you win or lose, you can get Traits anyway. So it would be some sort of consolation price, which will diminish the amount of frustration by losing.

    Thanks for reading and i appologize for my english, hope you like the idea!

  2. #2
    Basic Member Zath's Avatar
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    I think I missed the part about why I actually want traits, if all I get is a message at the end of the game saying I healed the most, I really don't care. (Well I care, I think this might be a cool addition, but NOT to replace achievements)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Complex View Post
    or by getting into shadow and Tp
    Shadow ..... yea ... this person is obviously new to dota

  4. #4
    Basic Member Hadgehog's Avatar
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    Sounds interesting.
    I actually proposed a rather similar idea to that, but what I wanted was to let those 'traits' be kept in your profile page and be visible for others. And the traits would mainly show what kind of heroes you play(support/carry/etc), on what game modes(ap/sd/rd/cm) and other stuff that describes you as a player. So your teammaes can easier 'undersand' what to expect from you.
    Anyway, as long as it doesn't change player's attitude to gameplay(that's probably the shortest way to describe all possible problems with 'farming' traits), I'd love to see something like that in game.

  5. #5
    Basic Member MaxBeoulve's Avatar
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    errr no. let's explain this in parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Complex View Post
    Lack of support players; Current stats only benefit carrys, since the only measurable or countable stat is K/D/A and GPM/ExPM (carry based stat)
    No loser-consolation price; it gan get really frustrating to play an awesome match and yet lose
    Mostly, a pub. You can't control what they pick, nor their stupidity about glorifying the carry will stop. There is loser-consolation price: They receive BP and itens EXACTLY like the winning team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Complex View Post
    All-seeing-eye Trait: for whom bought the greatest amount of obs, Combat Medic Trait: for whom healed the most heroes damage points during game, Fearless: for whom initiated the most teamfights...
    These are very, very exploitable, griefers and ragers would laugh at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Complex View Post
    The best part about this is that, no matter if you win or lose, you can get Traits anyway. So it would be some sort of consolation price, which will diminish the amount of frustration by losing.
    Nothing can diminish the frustation by losing, after all, YOURE LOSING. DEAL WITH IT.

    Anyway, it seems you're new to dota =X.

  6. #6
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    FYI: ive been playing dota since 2005 =~

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
    Mostly, a pub. You can't control what they pick, nor their stupidity about glorifying the carry will stop. There is loser-consolation price: They receive BP and itens EXACTLY like the winning team.
    True, you cannot control what users pick, but you, as a game designer can help the selection of X or Y picks by adding this kind of stuff. And yes, im talking about pubs, where every dota player starts, not the few minority that plays CM or Tournaments. Im adding this as a suggestion to increase the level of dota for the vast mayority that plays pubs.
    Game designers can help the use of diferent metagaming and heroes by adding statistics and traits, if game designers value or consider a possitive thing to stack neutral creeps, or to add wards, etc, players will notice and therefor will try to do it for their own good at first, and then will realize that it helps out the team, learning a valuable lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
    These are very, very exploitable, griefers and ragers would laugh at that.
    False. With the right algoritms you can detect whether if the user is exploiting or not. If user is not exploiting, add point, else ignore.
    (im Game designer and programmer myself, so im not talking in the blur here)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
    Nothing can diminish the frustation by losing, after all, YOURE LOSING. DEAL WITH IT.
    False again, whenever i lose a game and get a cool item dont feel as frustrating as not getting anything. I go all like: "well, at least i got this awesome prize" Thats why its called consolation prize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andriuha View Post
    Shadow ..... yea ... this person is obviously new to dota
    im sorry if my english was not good enough, "fog" might be the correct word? anyways, i hope you liked the idea

  8. #8
    Basic Member Direclaw's Avatar
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    I read the entire thing, I realy like your idea and you have my support on that. I see no reason for the loosing team to win something too, and the people who have done amazing things in the game will be rewarded with that idea.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadgehog View Post
    Sounds interesting.
    I actually proposed a rather similar idea to that, but what I wanted was to let those 'traits' be kept in your profile page and be visible for others. And the traits would mainly show what kind of heroes you play(support/carry/etc), on what game modes(ap/sd/rd/cm) and other stuff that describes you as a player. So your teammaes can easier 'undersand' what to expect from you.
    Anyway, as long as it doesn't change player's attitude to gameplay(that's probably the shortest way to describe all possible problems with 'farming' traits), I'd love to see something like that in game.
    Yeah, i thought it could be displayed at your profile, as an average of your mosly common traits. Say, if you get in 1 or 2 games the "All seeing eye" trait, over 500 games u had, that trait should not show up, since you are obviously not gonna buy many wards or dust during the game and that could confuse your teammates.

    I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody. The hardest thing about matchmaking (i guess) is to determine whether the match is going to be balanced or not since the information it uses must be k/d/a, gpm, epm, if matchmaking could use this kinda traits and fix teams according to their profile the experience would be enhanced.

    Id love to read your post, so if you can add a link somewhere (so i dont have to search among your 432 posts it will be gr8!!)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complex View Post
    Yeah, i thought it could be displayed at your profile, as an average of your mosly common traits. Say, if you get in 1 or 2 games the "All seeing eye" trait, over 500 games u had, that trait should not show up, since you are obviously not gonna buy many wards or dust during the game and that could confuse your teammates.

    I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody. The hardest thing about matchmaking (i guess) is to determine whether the match is going to be balanced or not since the information it uses must be k/d/a, gpm, epm, if matchmaking could use this kinda traits and fix teams according to their profile the experience would be enhanced.

    Id love to read your post, so if you can add a link somewhere (so i dont have to search among your 432 posts it will be gr8!!)
    AFAIK the information match making uses is wins and loses, not kills etc.
    Including this kind of thing in match making would dig a trench for each person that's hard to get out of. If you play support a lot you will be expected to continue doing so, regardless of what you want.


    Also, I doubt one can make a reliable anti-griefing system for the wards, and even then one probably wouldn't as it's much easier to change or remove the 'trend.'

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