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Thread: Nature of punish should be changed from TIME (in hours or days) to NUMBER OF GAMES.

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    Lightbulb Nature of punish should be changed from TIME (in hours or days) to NUMBER OF GAMES.

    I posted this in a thread but I believe this is a new thing to discuss so I am reposting it as a new thread, hope this doesn't violate any rules etc.

    The nature of punish should not be in days, in fact it should be in the form of number of games. For example, if a person left 1 game or got reported for bad behaviour. He should be punished for being in low priority not for a whole day, his punish should be in form of number of games, for instance, now he'll have to play 2 or 4 or whatever number of games in low priority.

    I suggest this because if a person left lets say 2 games, he must not face the penalty for a week or so, because if those who are avid players, they suffer and those who are not regular players, they will not play for the said period & will come back with same attitude. Therefore the penalty should make the player play number of games in low priority instead of penalizing him for the time he stays in low priority. The penalty should comprise that he should complete those penalty games (low priority games) in order to come back to high priority, this will correct his habit of leaving games by making him complete said number of games and this will also encourage good players to complete the number of games in one day instead of waiting for days for punish to end.

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    Basic Member Direclaw's Avatar
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    Consider this a complement to the OP.

    For those who are not interested in reading a 30 pages discussion but still want to post here a resume: (I will try to keep this updated and if you think a relevant part of the thread should be mentioned here please send me a PM)

    Background:

    The current punishment system is doing a really good job, the quality of the Dota 2 games are insanely better than the Dota 1 games making everything much more enjoyable. But just because it is good doesn't mean it can't get better. The current system has many holes. People who don't play a lot are almost unaffected by the system while players who play dozens of games in a row are massively affected. Also if you have 2 accounts or more you are almost immune to the entire system, if you get punished in one you just have to play on the other one while the punishment wares off. There are also those who "Wait out of their punishment", they simply go do something else while the punishment is on.

    Those people who are almost not affected by the punishment and those who are able to "dodge" it can do whatever they want and nothing will ever happen to them, its like going to a jail with a big ass hole on the wall. I'm not going in deep on why the rules are important on a game like this because I believe you all have common sense.

    For those who don't understand the concept of the LPQ here is an explanation: The majority of the players don't like when players ruin their games. To ensure the quality of the games for the majority a set of rules was created (And unfortunately not published yet). If a player chose to not follow those rules they will only be able to play with people that doesn't follow the rules either. Some players don't really care and will stay on the low priority being allowed to play normally, others will realize how bad it is when someone ruin their games and will stop ruining the games of others. In the end everyone is happy (in theory).

    The main suggestion now is to change the punishment from a number of days from a number of hours of gameplay. But changing to a number of matches is still a viable alternative.

    Average time/number of matches suggested:

    The number is spinning around 4-6 matches or 3-5 hours of gameplay for each 24 hours of current punishment (which is a little low imo).

    Up sides:

    - People will not be able to bypass the punishment system by creating other accounts.
    - The punishment will be meaningful to every player, therefore those who were not affected by the punishment will now have to respect the rules in order to play outside the LPQ
    - Possibility of keeping players who don't respect the rules inside the LPQ until they change their habits. Since they will have to play games in order to leave the LPQ they will have to play all the games without leaving or being reported. Those who don't change their habits will stay on LPQ forever, being unable to ruin games outside the LPQ
    - Equalization of the punishment: The punishment will be meaningful but not too harsh to every player, not mattering the amount of games he play a week or the number of smurf accounts.
    - The quality of the games in general should increase because of the things mentioned above.

    Things brought up against this idea (This is just a summary, I'll address each one of them later on this post, if I forgot anything please let me know)

    - Players who don't play much, when punished, will have their punishment increased.
    - Players should be able to opt out of the punishment.
    - If the unit is number of games, players might throw away games just to end the matches faster so they can get out of the punishment faster.
    - This suggestion can increase the effects of a bad and unfair report system.
    - This suggestion scare players away from the game.
    - People will create bots to play for them while in LPQ in order to bypass the punishment.

    Common suggestions (This is also just a summary, I'll address each one of them later on this post)

    - Making it number of matches or days.
    - Under a perfect report system making it number and days.

    Below this line I'll be addressing each of the things that were brought up, if you still think they represent a threat to this idea please let me know.

    Addressment of the cons

    - Players who don't play much, when punished, will have their punishment increased: If they don't play a lot they will indeed have a much long time on the LPQ, but since they don't play a lot they will almost never be punished at all. In my opinion this is a actually a good thing because those players are usually immune to the system.

    - Players should be able to opt out of the punishment: I really don't see a reason to allow the players to chose such a thing, if they were declared guilty they should play with those players who were also declared guilty for a while.

    - If the unit is number of games, players might throw away games just to end the matches faster so they can get out of the punishment faster: First of all having to do this is a pretty good punishment in my opinion, since Dota 2 doesn't have a forfeit they will usually have to play at least 20 minutes each match to avoid being reported by intentional feeding by the enemy team. In the end having to spend hours throwing games away with a premade is a superb punishment. But in the end this can be avoided by choosing hours of gameplay over number of games.

    - This suggestion can increase the effects of a bad and unfair report system: True, but we shouldn't have an unfair report system in the first place.

    - This suggestion would scare the players away: I don't see why this would happen at all, they can still play normally and they will be able to see why they shouldn't do the things they've done.

    - People will create bots to play for them while in LPQ in order to bypass the punishment: If you manage to create a bot that is good enough to not be reported constantly yes. Btw not even Valve was able to create such bot.

    Addressment of the suggestions

    - Making it number of matches or days: This idea is to make people able to chose to wait out of the punishment, most of the upsides of the main idea are also removed leaving the hole opened just like before. But this suggestion keeps the equalization factor of the main suggestion.

    - Under a perfect report system making it number and days: It doesn't equalize the punishment (just makes it harsher overall) but all the other upsides of the suggestion are still there.

    If you have something to add to this or if you just want to say if you agree or not feel free to post your opinion.

  3. #3
    Basic Member Joshua's Avatar
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    People should be able to wait out their punishment. There is only schadenfreude to be gained from forcing people to play out abysmal LPPP matches.

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    Basic Member Direclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    People should be able to wait out their punishment. There is only schadenfreude to be gained from forcing people to play out abysmal LPPP matches.
    What is the point of the punishment if a person only plays one mach a day, there are a lot of players that do that. The point is to encourage good behavior not disencourage to play.

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    Basic Member Joshua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Direclaw View Post
    What is the point of the punishment if a person only plays one mach a day, there are a lot of players that do that. The point is to encourage good behavior not disencourage to play.
    Low Priority Punishment Pool does not encourage good behavior, except in a "scared straight" sense that works well over time compared to a "100 strikes and you're perma-banned system."
    It works as well a deterrent as simply not being able to play, without the "not being able to play" part.

    I tell my friends who come to me, frustrated by LPPP games, to simply wait out the term. It's far less painful than dealing with the bottom of the barrel players.

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    How is low priority a punish? get some mates on deck and there you go even easier than 5stacking normal priority...

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    This can work if both things exist - time and games.
    Like that ursa's overpower.

  8. #8
    Basic Member Joshua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexxa View Post
    How is low priority a punish? get some mates on deck and there you go even easier than 5stacking normal priority...
    Matchmaking will continue to only pit teams of even size against one another. This includes 5v5, 3v3 + 4 pubs, and (2+3)v(2+3).

    The problem is, not many people are in the LPPP, so you can expect to wait well over 20 minutes for a 5v5 game.

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