Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Ability type; what BKB blocks shouldn't be a secret

  1. #1
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    131

    Ability type; what BKB blocks shouldn't be a secret

    It is troublesome that you have to look up on wiki to see what stuns and such go through BKB and which don't.
    An ability may be magical damage, and the damage is blocked, but it could be a "physical"(universal?) stun which isn't blocked by the magic immunity. At least, this is my understanding of the mechanic behind the reasoning of things going through BKB.
    Another example is how Slardar's crush is physical DAMAGE, but a magical ABILITY. The damage isn't blocked by BKB's MAGICAL immunity, but the MAGICAL stun is.

    I think the easiest and clearest solution is to have abilities list their ability type just under their damage type, as they often aren't one-in-the-same.
    This way I can tell my friends to reference the ability type on the tooltip to know whether the disables go through BKB or not, instead of telling them to look at dota2wiki for hundreds of abilities.

    Many tooltips also don't note that they ministun, like Crystal Maiden's Frostbite, if I recall correctly.
    Last edited by innociv; 09-16-2012 at 08:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by innociv View Post
    Another example is how Slardar's crush is physical DAMAGE by a magical ABILITY. The damage isn't blocked by BKB's MAGICAL immunity, but the MAGICAL stun is.
    Well you explained it yourself ... BKB grants magic immunity. Damage is Physical so it doesn't get blocked, the stun is magic = gets blocked.
    In general there are only a few "normal skills" that stuns through BKB. Sladar Stun and Void Time Lock. Ultimates is an other story. Most singletarget Ultis that control goes through BKB. And only a few AOE ultis disable BKB units like Black Hole, Chrono and Warlocks Ulti.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how much should the Tooltip tell. Its part of Dota experience to discover things that you didn't know before, and this things you will remember.

  3. #3
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    655
    It isn't that hard, when under bkb, no damage from magic spell, ultimates do only the side effect (disable/position change/etc..) but no damage.
    exeption to that

    Ultimate
    doom works 100% (if it wasn't, it would not be "doom")
    ravage does nothing (that's just a lot of empale, which are lion and nyx basic spell, so normal)
    Naga's song does nothing (This one, i guess you couldn't invent it, indeed)
    Omnislash (physical damage)

    basic spell (I will not list all physical damage spell in that part, cause it's too obvious)
    Net of naga (This one, indeed if you didn't played war3, you couldn't invent it)
    Berserker call (This one, you couldn't invent it, indeed)
    Diabolic edict (mixed damage, and we couldn't call it diabolic if it wasn't hitting magic immune)
    Every aoe spell that you "lay down in a zone" (midnight pulse/acid spray/march of machine)
    meat hook (personnaly, i would find it very weird if it wasn't hooking)

    And in bulk, every spell are magical, but their damage can be physical

    I mb missed one or two spell, but in short you have to remember like 5 spell that go through bkb or which don't, and other than that refer to how they are casted.

  4. #4
    Basic Member DarkLite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Patch Anticipation Station
    Posts
    3,919
    His point is that it shouldn't be a guessing game as to whether a particular spell works on magic immune / ethereal / linken's heroes. Burrowstrike / Fissure / Impale / Spike trigger Linken's even when not targeted, Nature's Wrath is blocked by Linken's, and BKB blocks the echoes from Echo Slam but not the initial damage. These aren't really obvious interactions.

    Since the information is available online on the Wiki / official Dota website, it's intended for players to know these things. But it should definitely be available ingame. I think there's a difference between making a game hard rather than challenging, and hiding information on the official site is the first one. Let me explain the difference:

    A challenging hero is one like Meepo or Invoker. Invoker can be played simply using just Cold Snap / Spirits. But higher skilled players are able to do much more with him using combos and Aghanims. Meepo's difficult because he requires a lot of micro, positioning and thinking. These heroes are difficult in a good way, in that the difficulty is based on skill / reflexes / thinking / practice.

    On the other hand, making things hard is "bad" difficulty. There aren't really any heroes like this in Dota, so I'll use the example of Diablo 3. When released, the highest difficulty setting simply increases the damage and health of the enemies so that you get 1- or 2-shot by most of them. It wasn't a question of requiring new strategies to beat enemies or skill, it was simply "harr harr you die if we touch you". Players simply death-zerged and exploited their way through the game, dying and respawning to throw themselves at the enemies repeatedly.

    Hiding in-game knowledge is an example of making a game "hard" rather than "challenging". It doesn't make the hero require more skill to play; it just requires players to go onto a non-obvious webpage and read what their skill actually does. It requires tedious memorization rather than reflexes or practice or skill, and as such I don't think it should be in the game. Better players are already separated from worse players by their builds, strategies, picks, and positioning. You're not a better player if you've looked up "earthshaker" on Playdota, and I think people who argue that Dota will somehow become a game "for noobs" are utterly wrong.

    On the other hand, take a look at the Wiki page for Kunkka. Check out the BKB / Linken's icons on each skill, and the BKB effect description on his ult. Putting this information ingame wouldn't turn noobs into pros and wouldn't give players information that they're not supposed to know, but it would reduce a lot of the pointless screwups in low-tier games, increase the quality of play slightly and overall make for a better and more professional game experience.

  5. #5
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    15
    t-up

  6. #6
    I'm going to turn this into another one of those 'let's compare this with how HoN does it' threads.

    Compare Slardar's tooltip (bold) with Pestilence (HoN's Slardar equivalent, italics).

    Slithereen Crush
    Slams the ground, stunning and damaging nearby enemy land units. After the stun, the affected units are slowed.
    MANA COST: 80 / 95 / 105 / 115
    COOLDOWN: 8.0


    ABILITY: NO TARGET
    DAMAGE: PHYSICAL
    DAMAGE: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200
    RADIUS: 350
    SLOW: 20%
    SLOW DURATION: 2
    STUN DURATION: 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5


    Impale
    Action: Self Position
    Type: Enemy Units
    Pestilence calls on the aid of his underground insect brethren to strike nearby enemies from underground. Enemies are impaled, causing them to be stunned and take damage, followed by reduced Movement Speed.

    Type: Magic
    Radius: 350
    Cast Time: 0.5 Seconds
    Cooldown: 8 Seconds
    Mana Cost: 85 / 95 / 105 / 115
    Required Levels: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

    Activation:
    Stuns targets in radius for 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 second(s), damages them for 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 Physical Damage, and slows their Movement Speed by 20% for an additional two seconds after the stun.


    Pay attention to underlined parts. Where HoN's tooltip mentions that the ability itself is magic, DOTA (2) does no such thing. HoN's tooltip also includes the cast time. Both mentions that the ability does physical damage, implying it goes through BKB/Shrunken Head, Omniknight's Repel/Jereziah's Protective Charm, etc etc. Note also how DOTA 2 says (which, in my opinion, is not immediately intuitive) that the ability has 'no target', HoN says the action is performed at 'self position'.

    Now let's look at Crystal Maiden and HoN's equivalent (Glacius):

    Frostbite
    Encases an enemy unit in ice, prohibiting movement and attack, while dealing damage per second.
    MANA COST: 115 / 125 / 140 / 150
    COOLDOWN: 10.0


    ABILITY: TARGET UNIT
    AFFECTS: ENEMY HEROES
    DAMAGE: MAGICAL
    DAMAGE: 70 / 70 / 70 / 70
    DURATION: 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3


    Ice Imprisonment
    Action: Target Entity
    Type: Enemy And Willing Ally Units
    Glacius encases a target enemy unit in ice. The target unit is frozen solid, rendering it unable to move or attack. The target unit takes damage over time while frozen. If an ally is frozen, they are protected by ice.

    Type: Magic
    Range: 500
    Cast Time: 0.54 Seconds
    Cooldown: 10 Seconds
    Mana Cost: 120 / 130 / 140 / 150
    Required Levels: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

    Activation:
    Performs a mini-stun on target then applies Ice Imprisonment for 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds for enemy heroes, or 10 seconds for creeps.

    When casted on an ally, applies Frosted for 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds.

    Frozen Effect(s)
    Immobilized
    Disarmed
    Revealed
    70 Magic Damage per second
    Frosted Effect(s)
    Immobilized
    Disarmed
    Revealed
    20 / 30 / 40 / 50% damage reduction


    Ignoring the fact that you're allowed to cast this on allies in HoN, HoN's tooltips mention:

    - Cast range;
    - Cast time;
    - The fact that the skill performs a mini-stun;
    - The fact that the target is revealed (from invisibility).

    I'm sorry, HoN tooltips are just better in so many respects.

  7. #7
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    150
    oh, thats why my friend say HoN is for new player....
    they explain everything.
    go back to hon baby

    im from old dota, so this tooltips just familiar :3
    i think i like learning from experience, more than learning from reading :x

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by triz_b View Post
    oh, thats why my friend say HoN is for new player....
    they explain everything.
    go back to hon baby

    im from old dota, so this tooltips just familiar :3
    i think i like learning from experience, more than learning from reading :x
    What? I've played DotA for years, I hardly ever play HoN, and I don't need any of these tooltips. That doesn't mean I can't recognise that someone else did it better, and that DOTA 2 can improve their current tooltips.

    DOTA 2 tooltips are much more noob-friendly than DotA. In DotA they don't usually mention anything about the skill type (magical/physical/universal). Why don't you 'go back to DotA baby', since DOTA 2's far more detailed tooltips (although, still not as detailed as HoN) mean that it's 'for new player....'?

  9. #9
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by infiniteX3logy View Post
    What? I've played DotA for years, I hardly ever play HoN, and I don't need any of these tooltips. That doesn't mean I can't recognise that someone else did it better, and that DOTA 2 can improve their current tooltips.

    DOTA 2 tooltips are much more noob-friendly than DotA. In DotA they don't usually mention anything about the skill type (magical/physical/universal). Why don't you 'go back to DotA baby', since DOTA 2's far more detailed tooltips (although, still not as detailed as HoN) mean that it's 'for new player....'?
    Yeah, this.
    I didn't play HoN, but those look nice.
    That's basically what I said. List the ability type, and damage type.

    There are numerous areas where Dota2 tooltips need improvement, and one of the biggest is to have an indication of whether things will be blocked by magic immunity or not.

    The way it lists things like "immobilized, disarmed, revealed" is really good. Like magic the gathering cards. That's nice and clear, and simple.

    I already know by memory all that are blocked or not blocked, but that's because I've read the wiki for ever hero and played hundreds of games. But still, after knowing all this information, that doesn't make me a pro. That information shouldn't be so hard to come by, it should be in tooltips.

    If your only hope to win, when you're such a good player, is for someone to not understand an ability as well as you do, then--- I don't even know what to say.
    Last edited by innociv; 09-16-2012 at 09:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    89
    There's a learning curve in Dota. this is part of it. Leave it in. Go to www.playdota.com if you have any questions

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •