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Thread: Please make a downloadable dump of GetMatchDetails for all matches

  1. #11
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    Things I agree with Ruirize on:
    • Dota buff has a full data dump already
    • Dotabuff does "stuff" with the information which requires said dump


    Stuff I think (s)he is completely wrong about:
    • Dota buff is a "perfect" website - it has every statistic you could ever want perfectly calculated
    • Thus, if something isn't on dotabuff it isn't worth having
    • Having all of the data isn't useful


    As Shinkai says, not being able to compete with dota buff is bad for everyone - firstly bad for dotabuff because they don't have any competition forcing them to innovate and improve, secondly bad for anyone who'd like to compete but can't because they can't get the data and thirdly for users of such stats sites as the site quality and choice available suffers for the previous 2 reasons.

  2. #12
    Basic Member Ruirize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm View Post
    Stuff I think (s)he is completely wrong about:
    • Dota buff is a "perfect" website - it has every statistic you could ever want perfectly calculated
    • Thus, if something isn't on dotabuff it isn't worth having
    • Having all of the data isn't useful
    I don't say that it's perfect, nor do I say that any statistics not on there aren't worth the effort.

    Having all of the data has limited usefulness. I can see where it'd be useful, but that's only for historic purposes. You might argue that it can be used to evaluate a player's performance, my personal opinion is that a player's performance shouldn't be based off of what happened years ago. It should be based off how people are playing now.

    We wouldn't need all of the data available if Valve exposed more methods for retrieving data either in chunks, or for them to accept wider-scope selectors, like date ranges.

    I just think it to be unreasonable to expect Valve to prepare a huge torrent of all data available, when a large chunk of it is irrelevant because of patches and balance changes.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruirize
    Having all of the data has limited usefulness.
    Yes, the point is that it is useful in some ways and thus we would like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruirize
    I can see where it'd be useful, but that's only for historic purposes. You might argue that it can be used to evaluate a player's performance, my personal opinion is that a player's performance shouldn't be based off of what happened years ago. It should be based off how people are playing now.
    • It is completely pointless to base a players performance off a single game - there is too much variation in play.
    • If you were to rate a players performance from any subset of games, you need to know how "hard" those games were - if you're up against dendi and do "ok" that's a lot more impressive than being in an empty lane with freefarm and getting the same result.
    • Thus, game difficulty is established by the skill levels of the players involved
    • In order to work that out you need to look at several of their past games
    • You then need to work out the skill level of their previous games
    • You then need to work out the skill level of the other players in those games
    • etc

    So to work out a players ratings you have a HUGE number of games you need to get hold of for decent accuracy.

    You could argue that you should ignore games that are older than a month and give a current estimated ratings based on those games only - that's your prerogative. But there are a lot of people on this forum who would like to be able to do pretty much exactly what dotabuff does, and for that they need a complete dump - See http://www.dota2dmg.com/ or http://dotaholic.com/ for 2 examples that I've heard of and can remember.

    If you don't want the data that's fine - but others of us REALLY do, and for good reason!

  4. #14
    Basic Member Ruirize's Avatar
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    What you suggest here stipulates the need for positional information of the player's hero, which is only available through replays. To work out a player's skill, I only need to know what other people are achieving. So if I take all of a month's games, and calculate an average game (K/D/A/Gold/Damage/etc) for each hero, and then to get the player's skill level, I'd calculate the difference between this player and the average of everyone. Outliers like Dendi get a high rating, because they "buck the trend".
    Of course, this method is flawed in the sense that if you play a support as a carry, (for whatever reason) you could get a higher skill level simply because you got more kills than you did assists. To alleviate this you could calculate average (K/D/A/Gold/Damage/etc) for each class of hero, and then factor that into your skill calculation.

    Working out a skill level should be per-hero (as it is in the DotA 2 client (Once OAuth is finished I imagine we'll get access to this data)) and only a comparison against what other players achieve. And because we have limited metrics on what a player actually did in a game, we can't make very accurate judgements of skill level.

    Again, it's great if Valve give it to you. I just feel that it would be unlikely to happen.

    Edit: Alternatively, you could hit DotABuff up with an email asking if they'd be kind enough to share their dataset. They're very community conscious, I can't see them saying no, really.

  5. #15
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    Ruirize I disagree with your last post so much I'm beginning to think you're a troll :/

  6. #16
    Basic Member Ruirize's Avatar
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    Just in case you misunderstood me, when I say per hero, I mean that a player should not be compared to a player who is playing a different hero.

    Also, why would you reason that someone is a troll if they disagree with you and have differing opinions?

  7. #17
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    Because you completely ignored my point.
    If you were to rate a players performance from any subset of games, you need to know how "hard" those games were - if you're up against dendi and do "ok" that's a lot more impressive than being in an empty lane with freefarm and getting the same result.
    Don't belabour it though, I don't really want to fill this thread with back and forth between us - can we just agree some people want the full data, as I think that's as far as we're going to agree!

  8. #18
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    I've read every post that Ruirize has said on these forums and they are always the exact opposite of what the other person is saying.

    Either hes a troll or is disagreeing just to disagree. Some people enjoy that.

    The main point here is, more data is always better than less data. There is no point for them not to release a torrent database dump. It doesn't hurt in anyway. It only helps.

  9. #19
    Basic Member Ruirize's Avatar
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    My point was that there is little motivation for them to do it. Sure, it'd be nice, and yeah, there are a few things that are difficult to do without it.

    'tis all.

  10. #20
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    it would take someone 30 minutes to create it and setup a torrent for it.

    The point of this forum is for us to give ideas to valve. In the end they will decide what they want to do with those ideas.

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