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Thread: Enemy Mana Bars

  1. #21
    Basic Member SUNSfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
    The last thing we need is random cooldowns on key abilities. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    ----

    Anyways, back on topic, adding mana bars pretty much removes the ability of anyone to buff having spells while out of mana and adds an additional variable to the worth of each hero in a fight. It's not a minor change that simplifies things a little, unless you check your opponents' mana pretty much constantly in fights (the VAST majority of players do not do this). It is going to alter how people play in fights and it's a little concerning that people are pretending it isn't.

    Now it might alter things in a good way and it might add strategy, but that needs to actually be discussed. Don't assume that just because the information is present in WC3, that presenting it constantly to people won't alter the game a significant bit.
    I think the notches on the healthbars changes things as well. Where is the line drawn? No pun intended.

  2. #22
    Core Tester alienufo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUNSfan View Post
    I think the notches on the healthbars changes things as well. Where is the line drawn? No pun intended.
    the line is obviously drawn at mana bars since that wasn't present in WC3.

    And the tick marks isn't that drastic of a change as most spells have a set damage amount and you could tell roughly how much HP someone had just by casting your spells or attacking people. Same is not true with mana.

  3. #23
    Core Tester Otter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUNSfan View Post
    I think the notches on the healthbars changes things as well. Where is the line drawn? No pun intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by alienufo View Post
    And the tick marks isn't that drastic of a change as most spells have a set damage amount and you could tell roughly how much HP someone had just by casting your spells or attacking people. Same is not true with mana.
    Alien is right here, health has always been relatively easy to feel, as any interaction with trying to damage that hero quickly informs you about how tanky they are. Note that the healthbar ticks show HP, not EHP -- it's still not taking into account their armor, damage block (vang/pms), or magic resist. You still have to feel that stuff out on your own or click them for the full story. It's minorly helpful for a carry trying to KS or Axe's Culling Blade, but in other situations it's mostly acting as a clarification of what the player already intrinsically understands. The healthbar ticks are improving the quality of information the information you have, not so much changing when you receive the information at all.

    The other thing is that makes health very different from mana is that the health of a hero is a very static thing. The fed Pudge is always going to be fat, the support Witch Doctor that's 1/6/12 with 14 CS at 30 minutes is going to be squishy, Dragon Knight is always going to laugh at your physical attacks, and so on. Even beyond the ability to gauge someone's approximate tankiness once you engage them in combat, any decently experienced player has an understanding of about how squishy most heroes will be in most situations, if they occasionally check inventories to see what the enemy is building up to, they'll have a very good idea. Mana is a far more dynamic stat, there's too much casting in a fight to internally keep track of everyones' mana, there's a slight expectation that people might run out as the fight drags on, but it's not a certainty. When Lina runs up to you 10 seconds into the fight in WC3 and you know she hasn't Bladed yet, you likely don't have a clue if she has the mana to do a full combo or if she's just dropping a stun because it's all she has left. It's very unlikely that the WC3 DotA player has that information without clicking her. Giving it up-front, at all times is a very big change to a piece of information that is constantly in flux and was previously hard to track.

  4. #24
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
    ...
    My opinion is that remove click to check current mana if there is no enemy mana bar

  5. #25
    Core Tester alienufo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CvP View Post
    My opinion is that remove click to check current mana if there is no enemy mana bar
    but that would be inconsistent with dota 1 functionality, and also have major gameplay ramifications on any hero with mana burn.

  6. #26
    Core Tester alienufo's Avatar
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    i would not necessarily be against adding enemy mana bars to easy mode.

  7. #27
    Core Tester Otter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienufo View Post
    i would not necessarily be against adding enemy mana bars to easy mode.
    EM divides the community enough already, I feel that we're better off reducing its impact.

  8. #28
    Basic Member Lycan's Avatar
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    Enemy mana bar no, enemy health bar with ticks pehaps, enemy health bar in colour indication yes.
    Selecting for enemy mana bar is fine with me. But not make it to easy to use manaburning stuff etc.

    Also variable cooldowns is fine with me tbh.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
    Unfortunately, most of this stuff already exists. Lots of teams at LAN have a sixth player that sits over their shoulders and keeps track of things like enemy Black Hole cooldown, Roshan respawn, MIA calls, etc. So it's a bit more complicated of an issue than just "is it taking the gameplay away from the players?" The pros are already frequently doing just that, so I regret saying it, but that ship has sailed.

    I'm not sure what to do about it, but it's worth thinking about. The sixth player thing could be banned at LANs, but it's not enforceable for online tournaments for obvious reasons. Either way, it raises questions about what we're comfortable with having as the responsibility of the actual player.

    ---

    edit: I realize this doesn't have much to do with the manabars topic itself, since the player at the controls still needs to actively do the click on the enemy, even if he has a friend watching. But it is relevant to the broader theme of how much information we spoon-feed players, so I figured I'd mention it.
    This is definitely on topic, and I'd like to point out coaches in other games (like Halo Reach). In Reach, the coach will keep track of the power weapons spawns, power up spawns, etc - this is equal to rune spawns, cooldowns, and roshan. What the coach I'm sure doesn't keep track of (and if he does it would be EXREMELY hard) is the number of bullets in say the rocket launcher or sniper. This can directly correlate to dota, as the coach may not be able to say "hey that guy only has 1 shot with the sniper you can kill him faster then he can hit you and switch weapons", same as "hey he only has 200 mana he can only cast one spell".

    I don't think that displaying information like mana amount would be beneficial in cases like that, as there are plenty of other factors to consider like regen, and items (bottle/stick).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
    The other thing is that makes health very different from mana is that the health of a hero is a very static thing. The fed Pudge is always going to be fat, the support Witch Doctor that's 1/6/12 with 14 CS at 30 minutes is going to be squishy, Dragon Knight is always going to laugh at your physical attacks, and so on. Even beyond the ability to gauge someone's approximate tankiness once you engage them in combat, any decently experienced player has an understanding of about how squishy most heroes will be in most situations, if they occasionally check inventories to see what the enemy is building up to, they'll have a very good idea. Mana is a far more dynamic stat, there's too much casting in a fight to internally keep track of everyones' mana, there's a slight expectation that people might run out as the fight drags on, but it's not a certainty. When Lina runs up to you 10 seconds into the fight in WC3 and you know she hasn't Bladed yet, you likely don't have a clue if she has the mana to do a full combo or if she's just dropping a stun because it's all she has left. It's very unlikely that the WC3 DotA player has that information without clicking her. Giving it up-front, at all times is a very big change to a piece of information that is constantly in flux and was previously hard to track.
    But whats so diffrent about mana? Its pretty much static also, if we remove Manaburn from the equation. Any good players knows how much mana is needed to cast certain spells. They also look on their items as they same with HP. In a team battle a unit can cast a certian amount of spells, and most good players will know that a Witch doctor probably will only afford his spells once + ultimate with in the early game.

    I am completely fine with either way as i have learned both, but the only time it really matters imo is when being chased or chasing to see how much mana a player has left. Having to click the hero to find out doesn't seem so skillful to me. Either you do it or you dont, with having the mana bars there you either watch them or you dont. It wont bad players play better and it probably wont make the best players play better. But it will hoepfully make the game somewhat more forgiving in the general feeling.

    Just my feelings.

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