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Thread: General Matchmaking Feedback Thread [READ OP]

  1. #221
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    360
    Like:
    - Asking for feedback after the game. Hopefully it improves matchmaking over time.

    Dislike:
    - Had more large stacks (even 5 man) against solo players lately. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not. Tends to produce horrible one-sided matches.
    - Still the same old story getting matched against a team with 3-4 players with ~500 wins and 1-2 players with 1-100 wins in the same match. Matchmaking works very poorly in this respect.
    - Longer queues due to more game modes and language modes.
    - Despite choosing English language, very frequently there is Russian or Eastern European languages are spammed in team chat. On the other hand, some of these guys do communicate in English after asked to do so.
    - Cannot prioritize what game modes you would like to play. For instance having 1st Random Draft, 2nd Single Draft, 3rd Least played, instead of all considered equal.
    - Lack of information when it comes to performance and progress. New hero performance bars only tell W/L visually, even the old performance bars were better.
    - Lack of transparency in MMR.

    Suggestions:
    - Display the chosen language at the beginning of the match. This would reduce the need to remind players what's the language in the game (and/or only allow one language to be chosen).
    - Display also what server is chosen for the match.
    - Under no circumstances should 4-5 man stacks face all solo players.

  2. #222
    likes: easy to use

    Dislikes: random teams vs stacks, teammates/enemies not even close to my skill level. If i get at least 1-2 proper teammates, i just stomp everything, or i get 2-3 teammates who reach 0-10 stats at 4 min and get stomped, 90% of the games. I just have to give almost every round 1-2 stars, maximum 3 stars if its somehow balanced a bit. Really, make a new MM concept, it just doesn't work. The amount of games played seems to not really be count for the MM, as i am getting much more/less experienced enemies than teammates or other way around.

    Dota is a really nice game, very good balanced, made professionally and with love. Don't let this stupid MM system break it.
    Prepare for unforeseen consequences.

  3. #223
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    Nov 2011
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    26
    Dislikes:

    Just to kind of add on to my original post, I dont want to make it any longer than it. Here is a game I noticed when I was doing some research into my previous games about the MM system. This game is after a current 5 game losing streak. I mean when your on a 5 game winning streak the games are fixed and almost impossible to win so when you go on a 5 game LOSING streak you would think the MM would throw you a bone and give you an easy game, nah.
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/116113014

    The two people visible on dotabuff on my team have a win rate of 331 - 354(48.32%) and 290 - 333(46.55%) .. Now the 3 people visible on the enemy team (that completely stomped us btw) have a win rate of 403 - 400(50.19%) 560 - 545(50.68%) and 571 - 591(49.14%) Although the last one isnt that great, he still has almost 1200 games.. Cmon valve, can't you see that this is flawed?

    We only want even games, thats why I play the game, is for those long 50-80 minute back and forth even games between 2 teams, both with 5 COMPETENT players. But unfortunately that happens about 1/10 games. honestly.

  4. #224
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    27
    like:
    nothing

    dislikes:
    1) long queue
    2) still crep mm algorithm. (admit it u still wrong way. u must change main algorithm)
    3) no solo queue.
    4) no ladder or etc.
    5) russians (still speaking cyrillic alpahebet on english mm. and there is no punishment)
    6) force %50 win. if I win 5 matchs, next 5 match will be lost for me cos ur mm algoritms.

    finally if u can't create new ladder system u must be use classic. what u waiting for to do this ?

    sorry my bad english.

  5. #225
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    Nov 2011
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    18
    Dislike:

    The inevitable pendulum style of game quality.

    I get good competitive games and go 24-4 over this series. I know that the game quality is going to drastically shift soon and prepare for the worst.

    *Shift Happens*

    I'm 4-11 in my last 15 now. It's not because enemy has become better or stronger because my hidden mmr has increased due to winning, my team just become less and less competent. So incompetent that I have to search games after to verify that I'm still in very high.

    MATCHIDs during 24-4 series of games. (Sample)

    131319822
    130478147
    129599245
    123231287
    118717806
    120407035

    MATCHIDS during 4-11 series of games. (Sample)

    143111889
    143101797
    141758393
    141740355
    142414114


    Please explain these wild and PREDICITABLE swings. This isn't an isolated incident. This ALWAYS happens. Every good string of games is met with a near unplayable set of games until it resets again. What in your MM algorithm is causing this? Please explain it's driving me nuts.

  6. #226
    good:
    -reasonable queuetimes
    -good interface

    bad:
    these are my randomly assigned team mates in my last 20 games (I got ~370 win, ~52% win, mid pool, mostly solo or two man queue):
    1st: 1/9/1 void, cant use skills, has nothing but treads after 25minutes
    2nd: two players with literally 0/x/0 after 25 minutes
    3rd: 0/11/4, 1/12/6, 2/9/3, 3/6/1 on my team
    4th: 2ppl just randomly going afk - not matchmaking's fault I guess
    5th: 2/11/3 Enchantress who tells me that we have no support, no item finished after 50 minutes even tho not supporting, i have 150 gpm edge (while participating) on everyone on opposing team, but that's not enough to make up for my mates
    6th: game was actually somewhat close to being balanced
    7th: 0/11/6, 2/8/3, 9/15/11 mates running around with ~1k hp against a nyx they fed to dagon5
    8th: somewhat balanced
    9th: got completely stomped, got a wd who rushes dagger without literally buying anything else
    10th: somewhat balanced
    11th: someone left early, though judging by picks it probably wouldve ended in a stomp if played out
    12th: finally get some decent mates, stomp
    13th: see 12th
    14th: 2/7/1 troll warlord in a 50 minute game, sf who just runs in and dies all the time - but i manage to carry them
    15th: 0/10/7 SD buying no support items, doing nothing but flaming 2/11/5 dazzle, demands mid then fails miserably - got stomped hard
    16th: decent mates, stomped opponents
    17th: 8/13/8, 3/16/6, 3/11/5, 2/12/9 manage to get ~650 gpm despite them on void, but they are too heavy to carry
    18th: somewhat balanced
    19th: somewhat balanced
    20th: 30 minute game 0/4/0 , 1/8/6, 5/9/1

    5/20 games balanced
    13/20 stomps/bad teammates I had to carry
    2/20 leaver/afk

    And even those more or less balanced games were often down to me and my mate stomping our lane and then steamrolling opponents with 600+ gpm carry. Out of those games there were probably 2 or 3 that I'd say I really enjoyed. A lot of the time I can tell within the first 5-10 minutes who is gonna win (and I'm not talking about classic self fulfilling prophecy).
    Solo or 2man queue seems rather pointless, since I feel that the outcome is more than half of the times decided by matchmaking. I'm by no means a pro player, but I usually manage to do well in pub games and it's incredibly frustrating to have those games where for example you win mid hard but you have that one lane that manages to die 5 times before you're even lvl 6. Or those games where your opponents pick a decent team and your randoms go for 3 hard carries.

    Solution:
    I don't know what the MM algorithm is but I guess it needs to be made more detailled. For example in HoN there was a mod called trueskillrating (TSR) which calculated a rating not only based on win% or in elo points, but used K/D,A/D, wards placed, XP/M, GPM in relation to avg game length instead.
    Of course that wasn't perfect either but in my experience it was a lot more accurate than any win%/elo based system. At first it looks like it heavily favours carry players, but they balanced that by weighting wards placed/denies/assists per death higher than CK or K/D, caping CKs at 200 a game. So it was accurate for dedicated support players too.
    Last edited by marekmintal69; 03-08-2013 at 06:37 PM.

  7. #227
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    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    3
    LIKES:

    Good interface very simple and easy to use before match

    DISLIKES:

    The fact that you assign teams when the majority of players in the game are of all different skill levels that wouldn't be so bad if it forced people into certain roles aka support/carry ect.But when i play 3/4th-4/5ths of my game at very high skill bracket solo queuing and do ok slightly over 50% winrate WHY am i on the same team as someone who plays consistantly NORMAL bracket games and does poorly in them the fact that this is actually possible is absolutely insane to me.last 50 or so games its stomp or be stomped in the games i won it felt even if i fed hard wed still win in games ive lost the majority of the time i actually do rather well its just my teamates ARE THAT MUCH MORE CLUELESS.i understand that dota is very complex and alot of factors go into it but i can guarantee the way you developed your mm system is incorrect in the way you logicly thought about it just by seeing the fact you stick noobs on ppls teams who are SUPPOSE TO LOSE???

  8. #228
    likes
    - I like the rare occasion when people talk and communicate, these are the matches I enjoy and typically win(or at least I dont care if I lose)

    dislikes
    - getting paired with people who Don't speak my language. -- I dont know if its the result of people picking languages they dont speak or matchmaking ignoring it after a few minuets in the wait pool
    - getting paired with people who just don't want to speak at all. -- most times when I give advice or tips, I get a 'ty' or nothing, but sometimes people say 'shutup' or 'im silencing you' (I generally only give advice when I see someone doing something very wrong like a gyro with 'battlefurry', CM not upgrading aura early, or a riki that hasn't activated his invis after re-spawning.) which just makes their unwillingness to listen all the more aggravating.
    - not getting to play with people of similar interests and thus something to talk about. -- if you ever get around to implementing a 'learner/social', 'casual', and 'Pro' classes for players, let us tag ourselves with five or six interests (cars, James bond, photography, DotA 1, etc...) and pair the non pro gamers via tags(relative percentiles irrelevant, just balance the team, three noobs(40%) and two pro(60%) for each team) and announce the matching tags at the beginning of the match. just make sure to keep non matching tags privet. or let the community run their own servers, and people of given interests will find each other(when its out of beta)(lol, beta)
    - getting paired with people who ask for commends when the game is over, win or loose, talk/type or not(typically not). just 'GG commend me' i hope whatever karma system the commend/report system keeps track of those commend requests and disregards any commendations from that match.
    Last edited by DragonLost; 03-09-2013 at 07:46 PM.

  9. #229
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    Mar 2013
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    4
    likes:
    the games where i get talkative and communicative teammates who are actually willing to cooperate are really great. Even if I lose I am still really happy getting such teammates. I have made a few of such friends and I play with them occasionally.
    Perhaps the system could try and put communicative teammates together?

    dislikes
    difference in skill level with teammates- sometimes you see a player with 5 wins put with another teammate with 100 wins


    eg. I was just in a game where i was put with a terrible zeus player who maxed his first skill first and rushed a mask of madness.

    Seriously who buys mask of madness on a freaking zeus. I respect that these players are new and need to learn but if all they do is feed and not actually listen to my advice then there is something wrong with match making.
    I am not as good as dendi but I know the basics of the roles such as support ganker nuker and carry. There was another time i played a game with a zeus player and he took a DD rune in front of me ( I was playing templar assasin and even though i asked him nicely for the DD rune) because he told me "he was a carry hero" wtf right . What I am suggesting is another separate bracket for new players. All new players have to go through the bracket until they can understand the basics of dota such as last hitting and proper laning techniques such as pulling. Basic stuff. I tried really hard to get better at dota by watching videos and reading guides but it is incredibly unfair to see a drow player on your team who buys a freaking eye of skadi. Such players are new and should be isolated for themselves to learn. Yes if there is a mentorship program I would gladly help in it. I am concerned about the quality of games I have been having recently. I have been getting a lot of new players who play drow and they solo charge into a group of 3 enemy heroes expecting to kill all 3. Of course these people will feed and then they would blame their team for not helping but sometimes it is not realistic. I am pretty sure these players get tired of losing so much so why not just implement a low skill bracket for them? Yes I have heard of the 50% w/l ratio thing and I think it is a great concept. I would be happy having games that are neither too hard or easy. But if the system wants to make me have a harder game, I would rather have good players on the other team and lose, than to have really new players on my team that simply dont know the game at all(assume decent players otherwise). In a similar aspect, for easier games, I would rather win because of overall team skill than because of single players who charge on their own into 5 enemies at lvl 6 and feed. It simply is not fair.

    Although I understand it will be difficult to differentiate the bad players and decent players (assume decent knowledge of creep pulling stacking/ hero roles), i believe this bracket should be mandatory for anyone who is into their first few dota games. Perhaps you could implement a short algorithm to detect whether these players are playing as they should be. for eg. a carry buying carry items/ a support buying wards/pulling creeps etc. These algorithms would then decide if the players are decent enough to be placed in the normal bracket or should remain in the low level bracket. it doesnt have to be massively complicated, just enough to detect the basic stuff.

    Team fights can be a little messy sometimes and if someone makes a mistake, thats ok. We all learn through experience and playing more games. I, myself try to think of where I went wrong if I lose. Perhaps I should have bought this item instead? These skills to improve such as reflecting on mistakes must be slowly inculcated through mentorship as I believe not all new players would gladly accept advice given to them. I had a good mentor back in dota 1 who taught me basic skills of what to buy and how to gank and I am thankful for that. Therefore what I suggest, is for a volunteer mentor to oversee these low bracket/new player games and give periodic advice. Sure some people will be angry, but in the long run, we all benefit from a little education of the game from someone better than you.


    tl;dr put in a compulsory bracket for new players which they can only leave when the system detects they are good enough
    thanks devs for reading

  10. #230
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    Mar 2013
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    Hello, so I have been experiencing the MMR system with the same problem most of the games. I am from very high bracket, (played with tournament players on USW and AUS Pubs) eg N9 players, Fntic.NA, Liquid etc etc.
    My friends irl whom I play with are casual players (yes, they are bad). And when we search MMR, problem arises.

    Likes:
    The fact that you guys made a MMR system, so people can't stack or pubstomp anymore made the game more enjoyable.
    People also get a lot better over time when played with equally matched players, so constant improvement is always there.

    Dislike:
    A problem that I find most very high bracket players have.
    When you guys can't find enough top tier players for a game, what you do is that you give them mediocre opponents, and complete noobs as teammates. Making it 4v6 or 3v7 just because the noobs are not productive (and even feeding at times). Yep, I would say that the ELO would be even (in terms of points). However, the fact is that 1 or 2 player(s) can't carry a whole team especially when someone is feeding.

    Also, when I search with my IRL friends from low brackets, same stuff happens. As long as we are not in a party of 5, MMR tend to give me 1-2 complete noobs on my team just to even the ELO, making me harder to carry the team.
    (My solution to this is - I go Mid, I will win my lane, and hoping that 1 of the 2 other lanes can win, making us a higher chance to win the game) Otherwise, we will lose (there is no doubt, my win/lose ratio on smurf account is 45% simply on the basis of this happening) and I can't go on my normal account because it is even worse -.-

    Hope you guys can solve this problem for (competitive players playing with irl noob friends).

    PS. I do not have anything against bad players, I know that they are trying to have fun and play the game, but making them feel bad (who doesn't when they are feeding and playing bad?) and making others rage is definitely NOT a good idea.
    Last edited by Tolerance; 03-10-2013 at 10:31 PM.

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