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Thread: General Matchmaking Feedback Thread [READ OP]

  1. #31
    Basic Member TheCell's Avatar
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    -Matchmaking in general
    I really like the way matchmaking is made. I play almost always with 2 friends and we had some pretty awesome matches where both teams were really equal and one fight after ~60 mins decided which team wins! Those moments were epic!
    I understand its hard to balance those things and you wont be able to do that perfect. Sometimes you just have a bad day or are a bit sleepy and cant play as good as an other day. But in general I play a lot of really awesome games and there are only a few bad behaved ppl in my games. Simply ignoring them works perfect.

    -No information what counts into matchmaking
    Keep that one up please I dont want ppl to do x or y just to get a better rating. I think its the best to keep such things private! I've seen ppl just warding in HoN to get more Wards per game but the wards were placed shit etc or ppl just playing carry to get a high KD and comparing that long e-penis to ppl who support. That is just destructive and should not be empowered. Keep your mmr private

    -Showing Dotabuff the borders
    I really love that you acted on that so quickly and respect you guys for that! I dont want Third party Developers to ruin your (and my) game. That you dont show mmr is a decision you guys made and those things should be respected. I like dotabuff really a lot but with the mmr / elo thing they went too far. I really hope if Dotabuff removes mmr completly you can open the game up a bit more again. Don't listen to the community rage about that I've seen what HoN became because of too much public stats and I don't want to see that happen with Dota 2 too. Of course Dotabuff is playing the innocent...

    -Seasonal events
    I love that you put events up so quickly its really fun to try out something new. It may be not balanced etc but it really helps imagin new game modes and what is possible. Frostivus was interesting but the Diretide thing helped me much more in seeing new modes. I loved Diretide because it was something completely new and everyone had to invent new strategies and trying to adapt. The first days were the most interesting. Everyday new strategies were established only to see them get crushed the next day. The lack of having the normal objective really rocked the boat. I would love to see awesome community tools in the future so we can creat our own mods like WoW Instances with bossfights (already in WC3) or Pudge wars! Looking forward to it.

    DISLIKES
    - Matchmaking rating with Friends you dont usually play with
    Its sometimes a mess with them and I feel bad to rape the other team when I play with newely joined players. Of course you cant do much about it and I can understand that. Its sometimes just hard to play with new players and if they join our team they get raped what wont help to like the game at all. But I have a feeling that it is extremly dependent on what heroes the good players go in an inbalanced match. Sometimes you get great games out of it, others you get completely raped or rape because the good player picks a good ganker/carry and snowballs in no time.


    All in all keep up the good work don't feel bad for decissions you made and others do not respect all in all you are doing a really amazing job! And most important: have a nice day.
    Last edited by TheCell; 01-26-2013 at 06:51 AM.

  2. #32
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    Generally MM is pretty good, so I will focus on what you could improve:

    DISLIKE:

    -When solo players get matched against 5-man stacks. It's really hard to play against complete TEAM when you don't even know who are you playing with. Atleast give players option to not getting matched against teams.

    -No way too see how good you are. I would really like to see my MatchMaking Rating in my profile, but only visible to me only. Also would like to have graphs where I can see when I move up and down. So I can see if I am improving, have a goal, to know where I am standing in the playerbase.

    -No option for longer but more balanced game. I better wait some 10 minutes more, than get unbalanced game.

    -No option to be queued only with solo players. Where noone knows eachother. No pairs, no stacks. Really want it. Because this would be the fairest mode ever. Would encourage people to communicate more, since there are no friends, all they want to win.
    Last edited by eduard79; 01-26-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  3. #33
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    -

    DISLIKES

    - There is no public Match Making Rating
    Right now we have Win / Loose statistics which mean nothing. The Looses should be replaced with public MMR.
    - There are no Rankings
    This is supposed to be a competitive game and right now Dota2 is a casual game. A huge portion of the fun is the "competitive" aspect of the game and thats something which is lacking seriously. It results it a lot of players actually quitting dota2 cuz of it.
    - 5 people stack should be MM only with 5 people stacks.

    What you SHOULD do:


    Implement a "Ranked" and "Unranked" MM. That way the people that want to play "Casual" will play casual and people who want to play "Ranked" will play ranked. Thats what a LOT of games did and it proved to be adequate !
    Last edited by VasilevBG; 01-26-2013 at 06:56 AM.

  4. #34
    What I don't like about match making is:

    Problem
    When you solo que, you often end up facing teams of players.

    Fix
    Fix this by puting priority for players solo queing to match make each other before including teams into match making.

    -

    Problem
    Players have the ability to report others without reason. If a team of 4 simply don't like their 5th random, they will all report that player. It ruins that players experience.

    Fix
    The above suggestion with solo queing fix, but also fix this by finding a way to making ingame reports not send players to Leaver pool.
    Instead, you can double their connection time to the next game, or just remove battlepoints by 80% for a few hours.

    -

    Problem
    The Leaver pool isn't even worth playing in, if I ever get leaver pool status, i just don't play dota for a few days or play on a sub account. People leave so often in Leaver Pool, you never EVER complete a game.

    Fix
    its not fun, and if people just don't see a reason for playing in a leaver pool, then why even have it? Remove it and find an alternative method to punish reported/abandoning players.
    There was a good suggestion I've read previously about punishing abandoning players.
    If a player leaves a game, make then unable to join dota games for 1 hour + the duration remaining of the game they left. Players 99% of the time leave a dota game because they aren't having fun and would rather join another one quickly and forget about this one. They aren't leaving games to ruin them, but to find a better game. Just discourage that behavior
    -

    Problem
    Dota items don't drop enough. I have no insentive to actually want dota items when playing because I don't get them frequently enough.

    Fix
    The rare drop rate is nice, but at least increase the common drop rate.
    I believe players at the end of games should get a Chest that DOESN'T require a key to open. These in-game chests have a chance to open NOTHING.
    If you implement these chests into dota 2, they will become NEW currency. possibly 20 chests = 1 key, or something. It will give players a chance to actually trade for keys without purchasing keys.
    think about it.
    Last edited by TheBloodseeker; 01-26-2013 at 06:56 AM.

  5. #35
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    - I like solo matchmaking. Most of my games are balanced and fun. Nothing to improve here, it's perfect imo.


    DISLIKES
    - I dislike matchmaking as a team. If I play with a friend who is ranked much lower, games are usually pretty unbalanced
    How to improve: try to have another two man stack in the opposite team (consisting of one bad and one good player (i.e. similar rank to me and my friend).
    - I dislike that there is no "just-for-fun-matchmaking". Sometimes I want to try some new stuff/heroes/etc. but if I did, I'd lose and drop in my rank which I don't want.
    How to improve: create a second just-for-fun-matchmaking where no stats are recorded i. e. it doesn't count to your real matchmaking rank.

  6. #36
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    Likes:
    - Fairly fast queue times

    - Increasing number of available game modes. I hope to see more, like deathmatch mode (!!), but I know this dilutes the player pool and is thereby limited by your total players (if you want decent matchmaking for all modes)

    - You must accept when the queue pops. This keeps friends from queuing while you're AFK and then coming back three minutes after the horn.

    - No artificial restrictions like LoL's levels 1-29 (to say nothing of unlocks).


    Dislikes:
    - No sense of personal achievement. Specifically, I would love to see in-depth stats for myself (my MMR, my winrate for every hero, my average GPM during wins/losses for each hero, my K:A in winning/losing games with each hero, the items I've been most successful with on each hero, the number of wards I placed... Everything!), and I personally don't care if other players can see them. A lot people want this private, so I think there should be an option to make your stats visible to others (off by default, and inaccessible from in-game). Visible rankings can cause elitism between matched team members, so hiding it in this context is natural. On the other hand, hiding ranks from players often causes them to think too highly of themselves, and a numerical reality check can't do any harm. Stats give players a way to monitor their own progress and outdo themselves, which is a huge motivating factor in a competitive game... and the "Performance" bars don't come close to cutting it (especially since they are so grossly inaccurate). While I would love a competitive mode for teams, not everyone can commit to a team, and I think everyone deserves the tools to challenge oneself and monitor one's improvement. These could also be reset every season, so that players with numerous games wouldn't have so much trouble changing their averages. To be clear, I'm not here on behalf of DOTAbuff: it would be better if these were built into the game itself. Starcraft II made a huge mistake when it hid the truth from players in favor of nebulous, isolated ladders in Bronze/Silver/.../Grand Master, because except for GM League, your color (or Metal, I guess) only told you a vague percentile standing.

    - No support for competitive teams (but it seems like you guys were working on it from Cyborgmatt's blog). I'd like to see teams of five (or maybe clans of up to ~10) which play only against other such teams with in-depth, publicly available stats and a ladder that is reset seasonally. This creates an outlet for serious groups of players to play against other serious players, climb the ranks to gain exposure (or qualify for events), and it might also remove many of the five-man stacks from casual matchmaking. Elitism isn't an issue for teams of players who know each other, and visible rankings in a hardcore game type encourage healthy competition. Oh, and I can't think of any reason why a single player couldn't be part of more than one team, it might alleviate...

    - If I go from queuing with my good friends to queuing with my newbie friends, we get stomped. I guess what's happening is that my MMR goes up when I play with my good friends and win, and then when I queue with my bad friends, the MM system overestimates the group. Could a system be put in place which assigns groups of players who play with each other frequently a collective MMR? In the meantime, I created a second account exclusively for playing with my newbie friends, and that seems like the only solution currently available.

    - 9/10 when the queue pops over and over again. Perhaps a small penalty (like a 1 minute wait time) should be applied after every failed queue pop, so that people will refrain from queuing until they are certain their party is ready. In addition to this, players in a party could have "Ready" buttons which wouldn't be required to launch a search, but could inform the party leader.

    - Matchmaking often produces stomps. I have two thoughts below, but maybe the search range could be narrowed by default?

    - Can't control Wait Time vs Search Range. It would be cool if you could restrict your maximum search range (thereby making a fair match more likely) with the understanding that it will take longer to find a match.

    - The rank of an individual/team can swing wildly depending on the positions and picks of each player. For instance, I might play a carry very well but a support very poorly. My matchmaking rank probably tends towards whichever one I play more often, but in any game where I play the other, I'm getting ranked too high or too low. The same thing could be said of positions (mid, offlaner, etc.) This is a problem inherent to trying to rank individual players in a team game with so many positions, roles, and heroes, but maybe it could be alleviated by prompting players entering matchmaking to pick their intended role. Then you could even prevent players who want to play carries from being on the same team.

    - Language Barriers. Ending up on a team with someone who doesn't speak English is really frustrating. Maybe you could have players queue for English/Portuguese/Russian/Whatever in addition or instead of queuing by region--besides, the reason players queue for one server and not another is to get a low ping, isn't it? Maybe Language and Max Ping should be the main search criteria, rather than server region.

    - It's very easy to smurf, and will only get easier when the game officially launches. People use smurf accounts to stomp new players and to avoid Low Priority punishment. I almost wish the game costed something, like 10 bucks, so that there would be something keeping a player from creating a new account every two hours. An MM system which changes new accounts' MMR by two or three times the normal value might cause new accounts to reach the appropriate rank sooner.



    That's all I can think of for now. When's the custom map maker coming?

  7. #37
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    - Sometimes matchmaking works! balanced and nice matches without disconnect or leave with polite and nice people!

    DISLIKES

    - Sometimes it becomes a nightmare, leavers, flamers, disconnects on both teams, people who dont speak english and they ignores you ,spamming their own language in chat.

    reports usually don't work i think.

    and about queuing with friends, its little strange sometimes you go against 5 solo player or all 5 people premade, its little unbalanced if you queuing with 2-3 people.

  8. #38
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    - Reasonably fast, 2-3 mins solo/duo queue and ~5min for a 3+ stack
    - Team skill seems well matched when stacking with similar skilled players
    - Many options for MM types
    - Sever selection allows for low-ping play at all times

    DISLIKES

    - Non-native speakers in a team game

    I'm not xenophobic, but there are huge inherent downsides to being unable to effectively communicate with your team. This problem is exacerbated heavily when they stack and communicate with each other through in-game channels, causing a high degree of confusion. I personally only queue US East/West (East only if not playing with a West friend) and encounter many, many foreigners at off-hours (late night & early morning EST) where their local time zone servers should be far more populated than the US servers.

    Possible solutions:

    1. Enforce a soft-region lock for high population hours. Generally speaking, from ~3PM - 12AM local time, region lock should be enforced while allowing people to search a more broad range when queue times would become longer.

    2. Add an optional pulldown for language so if people only want to play with a specific language group they can do so, as well as adding the option to report those who do not in games created with specific language filters.

    - Team stacks with a high skill variance seldom allows for good games

    I don't think it should be enforced that people don't play with their friends, but I do feel that without matching them against similar composed teams, the games will almost always result in very one-sided games.

    Possible solutions: Longer queues to ensure better matching along with a disclaimer added to the queue window when players with vastly different matchmaking characteristics play together.

    - Stack order is maintained in Random Draft

    I queue with lesser skilled friends to play random draft occasionally, and since the game type has a defined pick order, it may be possible for one stack's best player to be on a carry while your stack's best player may be last pick because of the order you form your stack.

    Possible solution: Drafting order should be completely randomized when using matchmaking for game types which have enforced pick orders.

    - Inability to re-arrange a stack or promote a to leader

    Solution: Ideally, allow a promote option in the right-click menu and allow drag and drop for the remaining 4 members.

  9. #39
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    I like that it exists and we should not rely on lobbies, thanks, I guess.
    What you can improve is, I guess, the time it takes for a game to be found. Although I believe this will not be such a big issue the moment it's open to everyone. Now we have a lot of people, I know, I've been here for over a year, I remember 12,000 max people online. However, this is the only thing you can do that is kinda not entirely related to my dislikes.

    DISLIKES:
    Almost everything else. Look, I know you guys worked a shipton of time to get this done, but I presume you were taken in the wrong direction. Let me try to explain what I believe is a right one.
    Since you acknowledged the different types of roles a game can have, it make sense to contrast those types of roles within a game, and show who is done better.
    Easiest example is carry role - you have what, kda, gpm, xpm... They are relatively good for carry role. However, they hardly work for almost any other role.
    For example, how is a Wisp/Rylai/Lion compared to those guys? How can you measure my 3-15-23 with CM, when I bought a shipton of wards, I warded nice spots, got gangs off, got ahead in the game at my death's expense?
    This is the flaw I see at the current MM. I don't play carries, I kinda suck at them, so I am playing supports, and perhaps semi-carries, once in a while. I get lower than 50% win rate, I got almost 1700 according to DBR. I'm not saying it's good, or bad, but I believe I can play with higher tier players due to my DIFFERENT type of skills that are necessary for the game to go on, and go on nicely.
    What you can do, is, in my opinion, ask people which are the best things you can do as each role (generally), then tweak them, think how it would be better to make a general score, or if not a score, at least a list of benefits that each action in-game will end as a benefit to the game. For instance, if CM places wards on specific places, she gets ++, and if a gang is made thanks to the vision that the ward gave, give her some more credit.
    As a result, you can have at least a certain amount of data that is correct towards the role that the hero was used for in that game.


    P.S.
    I'm actually judging current MM against the SC2's. It's quite good, and I believe it shows the exact state of the gamer. The problem is that they're doing it for 1 person, and you need to do that for 5. Therefore current MM is not as good as it should.

    P.P.S
    What I'm suggesting is a thing that crossed my mind, but I believe the current kda/gpm/xpm route is far from being optimal, so I hope this helps in any way.

  10. #40
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    Likes:

    - I don't really have a lot of complaints regarding the matchmaking Queue. It works fairly well and I like that I can queue anywhere in the world. Every country has a different style and you can see that when you queue for them. Sometimes you get a wonky one sided game but that's just the nature of the beast.

    Dislikes:

    - This is a big one and should of been addressed by now. When someone Solo Queues they should not be dropped into a team of five randoms v a five man stack or any stack for that matters. A simple fix would be:

    5 Stack v 5 Stack
    4Stack+ 1 v 4Stack+ 1
    3Stack+ 2 v 3Stack+ 2

    A two stack can hardly change the game to an easily win but as you get to three and above you start having a lot more coordinated teamwork from the stack. The only way to balance it out is to either introduce a solo queue where only solo queue can go or do the above. I should never have to go against a five or four stack with a bunch of randoms. I should have an equally sized stack to help with coordination. A Stack on vent, Skype or TS will easily destroy (usually) a bunch of randoms. I'd be in heaven if this was fixed.

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