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Thread: Show skill range on hotkey use, not only on mouse-over.

  1. #91
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    Do want. This is one of the things that make game objectively better.

  2. #92
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    I don't see how this change would cripple the game so badly. I'm a newer player of DotA 2 seeing as its been years since I played DotA 1. I am putting up with the huge learning curve because that is exactly what I expected when I went into the game. My friends, however, would never put up with it, they would play one game, see how hard the game is to get into, and never give it the time of day. Games will change over time, evolve, and develop, if your argument is that it would make the game too noob friendly (Which honestly, this thought shouldn't even exist), that can be fixed by adding more complex mechanics and heroes, such as Invoker. Valve is a business and of course they wish to make money eventually off of DotA 2 and its loyal fanbase. Valve and Icefrog will always balance the game around the top players, as they should, but at the same time they should change the game so the huge learning curve is lessened slightly. Targeting circles and Mana bars are very good ways to go about this as they won't cripple the game. A veteran of any moba will almost certainly memorize the range indication anyways, along with how much mana each hero uses for each spell, it would simply make it a quicker process. Yes, this may lower the APM, but you have to remember, this game isn't about APM, its about positioning, map control, lane dominance, and team fighting.

  3. #93
    Basic Member asdaf's Avatar
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    To those suggesting HoN's range indicator: it's already implemented.

    I'm not sure if you guys haven't noticed but the cursor does indeed change when skills are out of range.
    Try it out yourselves: pick a hero, use a skill and move the cursor around - it'll change when the skill is too far away.

    It doesn't work with a few skills though like Pudge's hook, AM's blink, and Blink Dagger but I'm assuming the devs did that intentionally.

    As for the LoL's range indicators... how the indicator is now works well(I'm talking about the cursor one, not the skill mouseover one).

    It's a nice compromise for those wanting LoL's indicators and those not wanting any at all.
    It lets players know, approximately, the range a skill can be used from but still leaves in a bit of guesswork and knowledge to be able to use the skill ideally.

    And since someone will get angry if one or the other happens, the in-between Valve has already implemented works well enough for both parties, IMO.
    Last edited by asdaf; 12-06-2011 at 09:15 PM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdaf View Post

    It's a nice compromise for those wanting LoL's indicators and those not wanting any at all.
    It lets players know, approximately, the range a skill can be used from but still leaves in a bit of guesswork and knowledge to be able to use the skill ideally.

    And since someone will get angry if one or the other happens, the in-between Valve has already implemented works well enough for both parties, IMO.
    What is the disadvantage of not offering a LoL-like solution.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kautzman View Post
    Locking a camera is kind of a weird mechanic that plays a unique, but weird role in controlling what information you have access to. At it's core, I disagree with the idea of a locked camera but the implications of allowing someone to zoom out as far as they want become a bit of a mess, both on the technical side and on the gameplay side. The easy answer is to lock it and not worry about it. Technically, you are going to have to incorporate some kind of level of detail as the camera zooms out more. Now in the department of gameplay, things get a little weird because the game state of the entirety of the known map is available to you in the form of a minimap but the minimap in Dota 2 is really bad. Parsing the information on the minimap takes a moment where as in games like SC or LoL, the minimap is a very strong piece of information because it 'doesn't waste your time'. That is to say, you know exactly what you need to know by just glancing at it. Important items pop out. Less important items take a back seat and aren't offered the same super-contrast that our important items are.

    As far as the viewable area itself, I think the camera shouldn't feel restrictive. The problem in Dota 2 (And it's a problem that's pretty unique to Dota 2) is the camera does feel restrictive and it feels like something I need to wrestle with.

    In summary, I don't mind having a locked camera because complete information about the game state on the visible map is provided via minimap. The camera however does feel too zoomed in and that's a problem. The minimap doesn't offer enough contrast on important things (Heros) to be as useful as it should be.

    --

    In regards to the range indicators: Why not have range indicators? What disservice are they doing anyone by existing? The advantage is that learning one of the 104 heros is a lot less troublesome and you can get some kind of confirmation that an ability was used. The alternative is that you force a player to play the game enough to feel out range 550, which as mentioned previously, isn't a skill, but an eventuality. It's only a 'risk' for newer players or people who are inexperienced with Dota 2's arbitrary distance system. For experienced players, they can probably eyeball that with 2% without much of an issue. Range indicators just smooth the transition from hero to hero, or for new players, it offers a slightly more moderate learning curve for a game that already can rival Eve Online's learning curve.
    You raise some valid points about the camera, no argument there from my part.

    As for your argument about the risk of throwing off a skill being only experienced by newer players I beg to disagree. I am not a pro player by any means but I have years of experience with the genre and often times when playing, emotions get in the way and make you overestimate the range of a skill causing you to miss it. It's frustrating as hell when you miss I agree, but it also makes it more rewarding when you land that perfect triple raze combo from nevermore.

    In the end it's a matter of taste. But just because LoL does it, it doesn't mean DotA 2 should do it too. I realize that if they implement such thing, it will likely attract more LoL players, but on the flipside it might drive away a lot of the classic DotA fans.

    Anyhow, good job at defending your point of view with nice arguments. Just keep in mind I don't want you to change your opinion and start disliking range indicators. I just want you to realize that a lot of people dislike them and I just mentioned my personal reason for disliking it.

    edit:

    Hmm, what do you think about a possible compromise such as this:

    During the first 15 times (the number can change) you play a certain hero, the range indicators for that hero skills will be shown, then afterwards they will be hidden.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by SamRael; 12-07-2011 at 01:15 AM.

  6. #96
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    ITs a bad compromise, bcs you basically tell people to have learned their characters in 15 minutes and not any more.

    And the advantage of the indicator is simply that noobs do not have any idea how long 1000 units is.
    15 minutes arent enough to change that in the short term.

    And the indicator is all about changing the short term.

    In the long term nothing changes as people learn the ranges by heart then anyway. (as it is now)

  7. #97
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    what about for instant skill. like leap, berserkers call, death pulse. etc.

  8. #98
    Basic Member Vaana's Avatar
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    Well maybe it's harder for "beginners" to know what are 1000 units and what are 100 units.
    Anyway i think this would make the Game too easy.. because you have to think about:

    "Is the Range of my Cast enough or not"

    if its not.. you failed and you will learn form your mistake
    else you got him and you estimated the range right.

    And what is with "hook".
    Would it be like League of Legends, that u get a big arrow that shows you the range ?!
    This is sh**! You can also put a bot playing for u...

    So it wouldnt be a challenge anymore for me...

  9. #99
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    Can only be done on skills that select something or are a skillshot on the ground.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaana View Post
    Well maybe it's harder for "beginners" to know what are 1000 units and what are 100 units.
    Anyway i think this would make the Game too easy.. because you have to think about:

    "Is the Range of my Cast enough or not"

    if its not.. you failed and you will learn form your mistake
    else you got him and you estimated the range right.

    And what is with "hook".
    Would it be like League of Legends, that u get a big arrow that shows you the range ?!
    This is sh**! You can also put a bot playing for u...

    So it wouldnt be a challenge anymore for me...
    You don't understand, there's already 2 kinds of range indicators available through console commands, it is already in game. The only different is that it doesn't work the way OP suggests, which in my opinion is better than how it is right now.

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