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Thread: [Feedback] Bot Item Build Changes (still WIP)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by squinte View Post
    I just can't imagine not buying more carry oriented items on a carry versus buying a sheepstick. Buying a hex should be the job of your support heroes (likely the #2 - #3 farmer), not your carry.

    This thread on reddit popped up a couple of days ago. if you're interested in reading more into the comparison of Hyperstone into an AC, and just in general what other people's opinions are about how to build him as a carry.
    The only real conclusive thing from that thread is that Tiny shouldn't go AC if someone else already went AC, but otherwise he should anyhow despite any dislikes in choice purely because SOMEONE should get it sooner or later.
    Since bots that build AC and can actually feasibly reach it ain't that common, I'm just gonna say he'll still want one.

    And whatever about the Hex thing, all I'm saying is that a 6-slotted Tiny can't beat most other 6-slotted carries, hence a disable on them is of much greater impact than an additional carry item, and your team already having a Hex really isn't a reason to not get another one, the item is too good for that, and finally it prevents heroes from just running away from Tiny. Beyond his naturally high MS, he really doesn't have any tools to keep people from running off. I can't be bothered to argue about it any further, and I suppose it's situational anyhow because the Hex is only a choice if you're not up against a hero like CK anyhow, so it'd probably be better to just grab another carry item.

    I just really do not think Tiny should go Satanic. He's not a carry that benefits from it a lot, he's not meant to stay in battle, he's meant to explode the enemy team. If you want another carry item and some sustainability, get a Butterfly.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by squinte View Post
    In all honestly this style of Tiny isn't that good anymore. Watching a lot of pros play him, I've developed a liking to the agh's/manta combo and can't imagine him being played any other way. He's too insane to play him any differently.

    I skip drums altogether. It's not really needed for Move Speed as the Yasha has good MS increase, and the stats from the Power Treads/Aghanim's is plenty during the mid game all together. Farming drums after that is comical because you're already killing every creep in sight, it's just not worth the investment. Your movespeed is really good and so he doesn't really need more from drums.

    I also don't buy blink on him because it delays more damage or survival items. He needs more damage, lots more damage. If you need more movement speed, consider buying BoTs once you're farmed.

    Code:
                                    "item_tango"                                 "ITEM_CONSUMABLE | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_clarity"					"ITEM_CONSUMABLE | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_branches"					"ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_branches"					"ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_branches"					"ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_bottle"					"ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_boots"					"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_magic_stick"				"ITEM_CORE |SELLABLE"
    				"item_belt_of_strength"			"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_gloves"					"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_treads"					"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_ogre_axe"						"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_point_booster"				"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_blade_of_alacrity"			"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_staff_of_wizardry"			"ITEM_EXTENSION"
            			"item_ultimate_scepter"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_blade_of_alacrity"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_boots_of_elves"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_yasha"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    		                "item_yasha"						"ITEM_DERIVED"				
                                    "item_broadsword"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_blades_of_attack"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_lesser_crit"		"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_lesser_crit"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_ultimate_orb"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_manta"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_manta"						"ITEM_DERIVED"
                                    "item_lifesteal"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_helm_of_iron_will"		"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_helm_of_the_dominator"		"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_demon_edge"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_greater_crit"		"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_greater_crit"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_reaver"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_satanic"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_satanic"					"ITEM_DERIVED"
    With the early Agh's then Yasha / Crit (either one can go first, I prefer Yasha for the mobility, armor, and attack speed), you're a killing machine. Sometimes, depending on the game, I will momentarily skip over the Crit/finishing the Manta Style in order to instead get a Helm of the Dominator so I can stack ancients while I farm lanes/jungle.

    I do not like Heart on Tiny. It's not really that useful in fights as it adds minimal damage to your abilities while also having a useless passive (in fights). When you hit as hard as he does, his health is regained quite rapidly with just the HotD, but build it into a Satanic for really good lifesteal procs on the active. I think this is a big mistake a lot of players make, and though you might still win the game, I feel you save yourself a lot of heartache going for the Satanic over the Heart.

    Edit: I also tagged Tiny as Hard_Carry, Ganker. He pretty much owns any game he's a part of.
    I also went the same style for Tiny, I see you saw that reddit thread as well! I didn't go for satanic as final item though, I actually went AC, and I see you guys are having a debate about that but honestly I think it really doesn't matter at that point, most of the super high tier items will probably do fine if he's that farmed as a bot. I did however start him off with phase+drums, for the most part because I also skipped blink. I feel that he really needs to be able to make sure to get those hits in/catch up to his targets at that point in the game to make sure he does well later. One of the problems with the old tiny was that for the most part he can do pretty well until mid-late game, at which point none of his items scaled and everytime I wished oh so much that he had an agh's. And for this reason I didn't tag him as a hard carry, but rather a semi carry (even though it is most certainly a hard carry build), since I still want him to be active in the game early on as he is evidently able to do so without difficulty. I leave the hard carrying/static farming to the squishy right clickers like drow/viper etc.

    Also, just to clarify about the tags: my understanding is that if a hero has multiple tags ie "DOTA_BOT_SEMI_CARRY | DOTA_BOT_GANKER", he will be picked for one of those roles, not some combination of the two, correct?

    Edit:

    Also sort of unrelated but has anyone tried ghost scepter/mask of madness/dagon/diffusal to see if they work? I can also confirm medallion doesn't
    Last edited by assteepee; 03-14-2013 at 08:08 PM.

  3. #23
    Basic Member squinte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arxos View Post
    The only real conclusive thing from that thread is that Tiny shouldn't go AC if someone else already went AC, but otherwise he should anyhow despite any dislikes in choice purely because SOMEONE should get it sooner or later.
    Since bots that build AC and can actually feasibly reach it ain't that common, I'm just gonna say he'll still want one.

    And whatever about the Hex thing, all I'm saying is that a 6-slotted Tiny can't beat most other 6-slotted carries, hence a disable on them is of much greater impact than an additional carry item, and your team already having a Hex really isn't a reason to not get another one, the item is too good for that, and finally it prevents heroes from just running away from Tiny. Beyond his naturally high MS, he really doesn't have any tools to keep people from running off. I can't be bothered to argue about it any further, and I suppose it's situational anyhow because the Hex is only a choice if you're not up against a hero like CK anyhow, so it'd probably be better to just grab another carry item.

    I just really do not think Tiny should go Satanic. He's not a carry that benefits from it a lot, he's not meant to stay in battle, he's meant to explode the enemy team. If you want another carry item and some sustainability, get a Butterfly.
    Absolutely Butterfly. Evasion is always great, the attack speed is also amazing and Armor mixed in through agility can be useful in mitigating the physical damage you take. It's not in my originally posted build, as I just grabbed that out of the file I had been toying with. Not really trying to make a fuss, just going off of some personal preferences and trying to help weigh the pros and cons of a lot of potential items that could be implemented into his build.

    I buy AC on a lot of heroes that benefit from it, but I just feel like it's not as well suited in most situations on Tiny than other items. Satanic does help boost your survivability, not just in terms lifesteal, but overall HP. Sure it doesn't really help you if you're always locked down, but only a BKB can really remedy that. This is still an important point to consider: what is he facing? Going up against a lot of magical burst damage (you'll want more HP) in contrast to a lot of physical DPS (armor). Satanic can definitely help you tank nukes and physical damage better than AC, and it also allows you to sustain any further damage you may take with the bit of armor it does provide. It adds roughly double the amount of damage Tiny will get over a what AC adds through minus armor, however I think it's still just as situational as AC, as most mid-late games items are.

    If the game isn't going well, and I'm facing a good mix of both magic and physical damage, I consider going with Halberd for both evasion and HP. It's not the best suited item on him, but when the game isn't going your way, it could be a quick fix. The Sange's maim isn't really that great of mechanic, but it can potentially help turn a sour game around.

    If I'm going for an attack speed build though, I consider Mjollnir much more valuable to Tiny than almost any other item, Butterfly being of highest exception. I do consider what AC adds to my cleave over what Mjollnir adds to it. They both add about the same amount of damage (minus armor versus actual damage), but Mjollnir has a much higher attack speed, which will boost your DPS more than AC, as well as a good passive and an "eh" active.

    If Tiny playing is the carry, his job is to damage the other team, and so a sheepstick isn't that great on him. If you have a sheepstick, it's likely late game, where 95% of the fights are team engagements. Removing a damage item for a disable won't help your team win those fights as much as more damage will. Your team will be with you during these engagements and so it makes much more sense that they would be the ones working on a disables. If you want to add a disable to your arsenal, an Abyssal Blade would be much better suited for the job as it goes through BKB and adds much more damage to your cleave.

    Quote Originally Posted by assteepee View Post
    I also went the same style for Tiny, I see you saw that reddit thread as well! I didn't go for satanic as final item though, I actually went AC, and I see you guys are having a debate about that but honestly I think it really doesn't matter at that point, most of the super high tier items will probably do fine if he's that farmed as a bot. I did however start him off with phase+drums, for the most part because I also skipped blink. I feel that he really needs to be able to make sure to get those hits in/catch up to his targets at that point in the game to make sure he does well later. One of the problems with the old tiny was that for the most part he can do pretty well until mid-late game, at which point none of his items scaled and everytime I wished oh so much that he had an agh's. And for this reason I didn't tag him as a hard carry, but rather a semi carry (even though it is most certainly a hard carry build), since I still want him to be active in the game early on as he is evidently able to do so without difficulty. I leave the hard carrying/static farming to the squishy right clickers like drow/viper etc.

    Also, just to clarify about the tags: my understanding is that if a hero has multiple tags ie "DOTA_BOT_SEMI_CARRY | DOTA_BOT_GANKER", he will be picked for one of those roles, not some combination of the two, correct?

    Edit:

    Also sort of unrelated but has anyone tried ghost scepter/mask of madness/dagon/diffusal to see if they work? I can also confirm medallion doesn't
    Hmm, I'll have to try the semi carry role with high farm priority so he can both participate in fights and indefinitely farm in the off time.

    Perhaps there should be a separate "Ganker Carry" role, for those Hard carries that can also have good mid game participation, such as Luna, Tiny, Lifestealer(obviously not added yet), etc...
    This ain't ova.

  4. #24
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    That would be great, it would also essentially separate the gankers who need farm from those who don't. Plus they wouldn't have the possibility of having to buy a courier so they could get a quelling blade/stout to start.

    What do you guys think of putting armlet on Sven in place of MoM (if it doesn't work)? I currently have just treads>drums>bkb>crit>AC. I feel like adding armlet could delay the BKB a bit too much, in which case I could remove drums but then there would be nothing for movespeed...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by assteepee View Post
    Also, just to clarify about the tags: my understanding is that if a hero has multiple tags ie "DOTA_BOT_SEMI_CARRY | DOTA_BOT_GANKER", he will be picked for one of those roles, not some combination of the two, correct?

    Also sort of unrelated but has anyone tried ghost scepter/mask of madness/dagon/diffusal to see if they work? I can also confirm medallion doesn't
    Indeed, only 1 will be picked. Which is why I try not to mark heroes as multiple roles, if I make a hero do something like an Agha's rush and they promptly get picked as a ganker and start buying courier and deferring last hits... it just doesn't really work. The only exception to this is PURE_SUPPORT because it appears that they greatly prefer picking the other support roles over pure ones, to the point where you'll rarely see pure ones.

    I haven't tried any of those items yet, Dagon was added last patch however. I think it's safe to assume that any item not currently used will not have an AI for them, as I've tested VoD/Medallion/Atos myself, none of which are in any builds, and they all turned up not having an AI. Of course, VoD and Atos do after the recent patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by squinte View Post
    Hmm, I'll have to try the semi carry role with high farm priority so he can both participate in fights and indefinitely farm in the off time.

    Perhaps there should be a separate "Ganker Carry" role, for those Hard carries that can also have good mid game participation, such as Luna, Tiny, Lifestealer(obviously not added yet), etc...
    I've found that requires farm is generally outweighed by their role. If a ganker is laning with a semi-carry, even if the semi-carry needs no items and the ganker needs a lot, they'll still give all the last hits to a semi-carry.
    And there shouldn't be a role for 'Ganker carry', the AI should just learn to play heroes according to the sum of their roles in my opinion, though this may be tricky it's a lot better than making another role for every single role combination possible.
    Last edited by Arxos; 03-15-2013 at 04:09 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arxos View Post
    Indeed, only 1 will be picked. Which is why I try not to mark heroes as multiple roles, if I make a hero do something like an Agha's rush and they promptly get picked as a ganker and start buying courier and deferring last hits... it just doesn't really work. The only exception to this is PURE_SUPPORT because it appears that they greatly prefer picking the other support roles over pure ones, to the point where you'll rarely see pure ones.

    I haven't tried any of those items yet, Dagon was added last patch however. I think it's safe to assume that any item not currently used will not have an AI for them, as I've tested VoD/Medallion/Atos myself, none of which are in any builds, and they all turned up not having an AI. Of course, VoD and Atos do after the recent patch.



    I've found that requires farm is generally outweighed by their role. If a ganker is laning with a semi-carry, even if the semi-carry needs no items and the ganker needs a lot, they'll still give all the last hits to a semi-carry.
    And there shouldn't be a role for 'Ganker carry', the AI should just learn to play heroes according to the sum of their roles in my opinion, though this may be tricky it's a lot better than making another role for every single role combination possible.
    <3 VoD. Atos not so much. I was buying it before it got buffed and didn't like it, seemed wasteful back then. I've tried it on OD and Silencer since the buff to HP, still prefer other items on them for early-mid game. Items like Force Staff, Mek or my beloved Orchid Malevolence, (I'm an OMG Silencer(Orchid Malevolence Gangster)). Perma silence + guaranteed disarm during mid game is OP, enemy literally has to rush BKB or gg.

    I'll have to do some testing with the farm priority versus hero roles. I'm pretty tired though (just finished work), so I might do a few adjustments, load up fraps and run a few all bot games with Directed camera on and spectate from the couch. xD
    This ain't ova.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by squinte View Post
    <3 VoD. Atos not so much. I was buying it before it got buffed and didn't like it, seemed wasteful back then. I've tried it on OD and Silencer since the buff to HP, still prefer other items on them for early-mid game. Items like Force Staff, Mek or my beloved Orchid Malevolence, (I'm an OMG Silencer(Orchid Malevolence Gangster)). Perma silence + guaranteed disarm during mid game is OP, enemy literally has to rush BKB or gg.

    I'll have to do some testing with the farm priority versus hero roles. I'm pretty tired though (just finished work), so I might do a few adjustments, load up fraps and run a few all bot games with Directed camera on and spectate from the couch. xD
    It's very situational. I like it alot but I probably get it a bit too much haha. I see it as a good alternative/compliment to heroes that may pick up a Eul's. Especially ones that need HP and a bigger mana pool over mana regen, like leshrac. The slow is extremely powerful and helps guarantee pick-offs. Anyway I've put it on Lina after forcestaff since I used to have Eul's. I don't necessarily think it's amazing on her but it definitely doesn't hurt, and it's nice to have some variety in the items for the bots.

  8. #28
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    edit: spent a while searching and found the tier thread where people are talking about the files concerned. Need to externalise the relevant bot builds and use the override command.

    Can these item build changes be tested currently in-game, or is this theorycrafting? I would like to fiddle with the bots builds so they play closer to my preference for some heroes, but I'm not sure where to do it.

    For example if I edit the pak0 etc files and run a practice game with the current release client, will I see the changes? Or is it only supported on the test? (or, there's some other method?)


    --

    I like your Sven changes and I had practically the same ideas. I just ran him with bracer>treads>MoM>BKB>AC... although the game was over once he picked up the BKB (as it should be in any match where Sven is carrying properly!). That's my standard goto Sven build. The MoM before BKB means you can farm quicker and push lanes out faster. It's cheap and it is devasting for anyone to engage you early on, whereas if you simply rush BKB you're just less of a threat during building it.

    Good news is that Sven does seem to know how to use his MoM to farm (and also for fighting). He activates it and goes to work. In fact I was pretty happy: as soon as he picked it up his first thought was to go to the camps and farm hard. I think the Sven got the semi carry tag in this game (there was Drow as well, and she was doing more fighting).

    When fighting he pops his ult, war cry, and MoM (and later BKB). He is exactly as scary as a human player in this situation.

    This is nice for variety because the only other hero with a MoM in their build is Spirit Breaker.

    The only thing he doesn't do properly is use MoM to move around the map faster or return to base (he doesn't use War Cry either).

    My Sven got his hyperstone and then went to farm ancients and the jungle and just left the team to fight by the enemy throne

    for comparison:
    Code:
    		"Bot"
    		{
    			"Loadout"
    			{
    				"item_tango"					"ITEM_CONSUMABLE | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_tango"					"ITEM_CONSUMABLE | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_clarity"					"ITEM_CONSUMABLE | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_gauntlets"				"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_circlet"					"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_boots"					"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_recipe_bracer"			"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_bracer"					"ITEM_DERIVED | ITEM_SELLABLE"
    				"item_belt_of_strength"			"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_gloves"					"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_power_treads"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_lifesteal"				"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_recipe_mask_of_madness"	"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_mask_of_madness"			"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_ogre_axe"					"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_mithril_hammer"			"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_recipe_black_king_bar"	"ITEM_CORE"
    				"item_black_king_bar"			"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_platemail"				"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_hyperstone"				"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_chainmail"				"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_recipe_assault"			"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_assault"					"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_broadsword"				"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_blades_of_attack"			"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_recipe_lesser_crit"		"ITEM_EXTENSION"
    				"item_lesser_crit"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_gloves"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_mithril_hammer"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_maelstrom"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_maelstrom"				"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_hyperstone"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_mjollnir"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_mjollnir"					"ITEM_DERIVED"
    				"item_vitality_booster"			"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_reaver"					"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_recipe_heart"				"ITEM_LUXURY"
    				"item_heart"					"ITEM_DERIVED"
    			}
    			"Build"
    			{
    				"1"		"sven_storm_bolt"
    				"2"		"attribute_bonus"
    				"3"		"sven_storm_bolt"
    				"4"		"sven_warcry"
    				"5"		"sven_storm_bolt"
    				"6"		"sven_gods_strength"
    				"7"		"sven_storm_bolt"
    				"8"		"sven_great_cleave"
    				"9"		"sven_great_cleave"
    				"10"	"sven_warcry"
    				"11"	"sven_gods_strength"
    				"12"	"sven_warcry"
    				"13"	"sven_warcry"
    				"14"	"sven_great_cleave"
    				"15"	"sven_great_cleave"
    				"16"	"sven_gods_strength"
    				"17"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"18"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"19"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"20"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"21"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"22"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"23"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"24"	"attribute_bonus"
    				"25"	"attribute_bonus"
    			}
    			"LaningInfo"
    			{
    				"SoloDesire"			"0"
    				"RequiresBabysit"		"1"
    				"ProvidesBabysit"		"0"
    				"SurvivalRating"		"1"
    				"RequiresFarm"			"1"
    				"ProvidesSetup"			"2"
    				"RequiresSetup"			"0"
    			}
    			"HeroType"			"DOTA_BOT_SEMI_CARRY | DOTA_BOT_TANK | DOTA_BOT_GANKER | DOTA_BOT_STUN_SUPPORT"
    		}
    	}
    Last edited by cinephile; 03-18-2013 at 01:43 PM. Reason: found answers

  9. #29
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    Is it possible to customize itembuilds or are there plans on providing such a possibility?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karyoplasma View Post
    Is it possible to customize itembuilds or are there plans on providing such a possibility?
    You can already, but it's only on local games.

    All you have to do is extract the npc_heroes.txt file with GCFScape from the pak01_dir.vpk file, then open it and change the item builds which are in the format we posted above.
    Simply put the edited npc_heroes.txt file in the dota/scripts/npc folder of the Dota 2 directory and then add -override_vpk to Dota 2's launch options, and you're done. If you start a local game against bots, your changes will be used.

    There's a big thread about it here: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=76241&page=3

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