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Thread: New players vs Veterans(Experienced)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladar View Post
    The trial is just the uncertainty/K Value in the matchmaking system. Think of matchmaking like this game (http://www.freeworldgroup.com/games4...ex/bowman2.htm) which is really just shoot an arrow at another person. You fire an arrow and if goes to far you use less power in your next shot, if it doesn't go far enough you add more power to your shot. At the beginning you changing this power value a ton but as the game goes on you make smaller and smaller corrections until you hit the magic number.

    What matchmaking is trying to do is determine a value (MMR score) where if all the players on the team have a equal MMR score there is a 50 chance chance that ether team will win.

    So it fire an arrow/makes you a team. If it over shoots the mark/you win all the time, it gives you more difficult opponents. If it undershoots the mark/you lose all the time is gives you more difficult opponents. At the beginning of matchmaking it changes the value a lot after each game (This is the uncertainty value) but as you start winning and loosing 50% of your games the uncertainty value goes down so you aren't having as big swing in matchmaking.

    The reason why it doesn't make sense to limit player based on knowledge is that assuming matchmaking is working what your really saying is "Player that read a lot guides should be ranked against better players even if bad. And player that don't have a lot of knowledge should be required to stomp the other team until a arbitrary value is reached.

    Also certainty of knowledge is actually a showing of ignorance anyways. Just because you instalock a carry doesn't give you the right to order everyone to feed you gold and kills. Just because you'd like wards doesn't mean someone should buy them for you. And just because you want a solo lane doesn't mean you are going to get one. This concept that the mid who has 7 kills and has a gold advantage over everyone in the game is unable to buy wards because of some sort of internet meta is ridiculous.
    Please provide a source for this. It has been stated numerous times by moderators that the matchmaking system does not aim to have people around 50% win-rate. You should meet equally skilled opponents, rather than too difficult or too easy.

    About the metagame complaint. This isn't my issue. My issue, very simplistic put, is that people won't do anything at all. I don't say supports should buy all the wards, hard farmed mid gankers won't do it either, even though it would benefit them. I'm talking about a lack of knowledge of the game, not a metagame issue. It's like people try to avoid my point and come up with excuses. This is again, not a skill issue, but an experience issue. A player with 100+ games should not be paired with players that have less than 50, for whatever reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
    So u want a written exam where they ask u about ur dota knowledge? nonsense!!! if u are playing with noobs as u claim, then u shld be owning them. if u cant own noobs, that means all ur knowledge is either :-

    a) wrong knowledge
    b) irrelevant knowledge to win the game
    c) self delusions

    FACT :- Any idiot who can read knows wat CAN BE DONE (afterall most heroes have only 3-4 buttons). Doesnt mean any idiot CAN DO IT.

    FACT :- smurfs can get to very high skill bracket by the 8th game (personal experience) though ive heard of others doing it in 7. I have also been paired up many times with ppl with ~ 10 games in the very high bracket.

    FACT :- If a person can get to very high bracket on the 8th game, it means MM must have some mechanism to fast track skill level bracket games as some ppl are still not up there at 150 games.

    FACT :- If u really are looking for a written exam or question and answer exam online for dota knowledge, then write to valve and ask for the test and request for a score. God knows how that score will actually help in winning games.
    It seems you are quite an idiot. Once again, I am not complaining about losing/winning. I have 65%+ win-rate over 150 games, I win just fine. I am talking about newcomers not being aware of what the game is about and thus not doing their job properly or picking heroes according to already existing picks, so you end up with 2 jungle heroes and 3 melees on solo lanes.

    If you can't answer the following, please don't post in this thread anymore: Provide a source for your claims, because everything you said this far, has not been properly documented. You don't know it, I don't know it and you can't prove it. You are a waste of air.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    Please provide a source for this. It has been stated numerous times by moderators that the matchmaking system does not aim to have people around 50% win-rate. You should meet equally skilled opponents, rather than too difficult or too easy.
    I don't see how you can you have evenly skilled team with out moving towards a 50% win rate or even a matchmaking system at all with out moving toward a 50% win rate.

    Let's assuming to player X has a 75% winrate for his first 20 games while it's determining his score. in reality that just 5 extra games he won. His MMR score is detected and he then plays 100 games with evenly balanced team mates. By "definition" a evenly balanced team should have a 50% chance of ether side winning so for his next 100 games he wins 52 games so his winrate is 55.83. As he continues to play more fair matches eventually his win rate will approach 50% because the system is working and those 5 free win he got at the beginning just fade away.


    If a player is winning a lot of games what should the system do. Most matchmaking system would give him more difficult opponents because if it didn't it wouldn't be a matchmaking system. This causes him to ether get better or lose which then lower his matchmaking ranking till the point he start winning again. Unless a person continues to get better for an infinite amount of time (playing against player that also continually get better for an infinite amount of time at a lower rate) then all systems will eventually move to a 50% ratio.

    This assumes of course that only wins and losses are used to determine matchmaking of course. But any other system, say one that includes gpm and wins in the ranking, would cause the same problem that I mentioned when it comes to experience. Eventually you'd have to match player with a high GPM that suck with better player that have average GPM and players that can win with low GPM would be allowed to stomp more often.

    And if your asking for a source, Well in this case it would be Reality.
    Last edited by Ladar; 03-19-2013 at 07:25 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    About the metagame complaint. This isn't my issue. My issue, very simplistic put, is that people won't do anything at all. I don't say supports should buy all the wards, hard farmed mid gankers won't do it either, even though it would benefit them. I'm talking about a lack of knowledge of the game, not a metagame issue. It's like people try to avoid my point and come up with excuses. This is again, not a skill issue, but an experience issue. A player with 100+ games should not be paired with players that have less than 50, for whatever reason.

    If you can't answer the following, please don't post in this thread anymore: Provide a source for your claims, because everything you said this far, has not been properly documented. You don't know it, I don't know it and you can't prove it. You are a waste of air.
    MM matches u with ppl according to ur skill level. God i hope my smurf with its 30+ wins wont be matched with u in a normal/high bracket game.

    Proof is so easy. If i create another smurf and then u add friend on that smurf account. Then u can search for my games. If u c a profile with say 10 games, and maybe say 8 or 9 wins with games in very high skill bracket. That is concrete proof. However, I have tried to answer ur question with facts. Yet all i get is sources, proofs and proper documentation demands. That leads me to question whether u asked ur question in good faith (ie truly seeking answers) or are u just stirring up issues so that someone will finally agree with ur (wrong) conclusion and u will therefore feel better that the system have unfairly paired u up with noobs.

    Believe what u wish to believe. If it makes u a happier person, the world is better off i believe.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
    MM matches u with ppl according to ur skill level. God i hope my smurf with its 30+ wins wont be matched with u in a normal/high bracket game.

    Proof is so easy. If i create another smurf and then u add friend on that smurf account. Then u can search for my games. If u c a profile with say 10 games, and maybe say 8 or 9 wins with games in very high skill bracket. That is concrete proof. However, I have tried to answer ur question with facts. Yet all i get is sources, proofs and proper documentation demands. That leads me to question whether u asked ur question in good faith (ie truly seeking answers) or are u just stirring up issues so that someone will finally agree with ur (wrong) conclusion and u will therefore feel better that the system have unfairly paired u up with noobs.

    Believe what u wish to believe. If it makes u a happier person, the world is better off i believe.
    Where do u see your "high skill bracket". It was already stated that the bracket in "spectator games" is not a correct value of your skill level.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    Where do u see your "high skill bracket". It was already stated that the bracket in "spectator games" is not a correct value of your skill level.
    It is STATED that the spectator buckets does not exist in MM. We're all in the same MM. However, the spectator buckets DO provide a the sum of players skill level in the game. Which means u cant differentiate btw 2 players in the same spectator bucket. HOWEVER u can compare players in different spectator buckets. In my past 30-40 games, I have only 2 games in the High bucket the rest being in very high. This would probably mean my mmr rating is most likely higher than someone with 30-40 games and have half of it in High level. It would most certainly mean I have higher mmr than someone with maybe 1 or 2 games in very high bucket in the last 30-40 game.

    As an added fact for u, which i cant prove BUT I DO KNOW, I solo queued the vast majority of the games maybe 3/4 of it.

    As another added fact for u, which i CAN PROVE, I can get matched with yyf ferrari and chuan. Which means im qualified (most likely barely) to play with the pros. Which means that spectator buckets while not determinative for players in same buckets, can be used to determine for players in different buckets.

    End of the day, u asked, i answered, to the best of my knowledge. If ur not happy with it and wants a different answer, so be it. The world is better off with more happy ppl.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
    It is STATED that the spectator buckets does not exist in MM. We're all in the same MM. However, the spectator buckets DO provide a the sum of players skill level in the game. Which means u cant differentiate btw 2 players in the same spectator bucket. HOWEVER u can compare players in different spectator buckets. In my past 30-40 games, I have only 2 games in the High bucket the rest being in very high. This would probably mean my mmr rating is most likely higher than someone with 30-40 games and have half of it in High level. It would most certainly mean I have higher mmr than someone with maybe 1 or 2 games in very high bucket in the last 30-40 game.

    As an added fact for u, which i cant prove BUT I DO KNOW, I solo queued the vast majority of the games maybe 3/4 of it.

    As another added fact for u, which i CAN PROVE, I can get matched with yyf ferrari and chuan. Which means im qualified (most likely barely) to play with the pros. Which means that spectator buckets while not determinative for players in same buckets, can be used to determine for players in different buckets.

    End of the day, u asked, i answered, to the best of my knowledge. If ur not happy with it and wants a different answer, so be it. The world is better off with more happy ppl.
    Please go ahead and provide a source for this as well as evidence for your matchups with pros - that would convince me that the skill brackets do exist, but only on High-Very High.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    Please go ahead and provide a source for this as well as evidence for your matchups with pros - that would convince me that the skill brackets do exist, but only on High-Very High.
    AHA!!!!! there it is. End of the day, u actually thinks the world revolves around u. Sorry to say this, Galileo had proven hundreds of years ago, that the world revolves around the sun and not you, no matter whether u r convinced or not. Nevertheless, I believe ignorance is bliss and a world with more happy ppl, is a better place for us all. Good day and god bless.

    However i cant help but dig up my most recent games with pros (ego u know). 150706783. the rest are too old to dig up.

    PS :- Valve and its co-conspirator IS out to get u. They wanna make u rage, they force u to play with noobs even though u r as pro as IG. And the CIA is involved somehow i assure u.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
    AHA!!!!! there it is. End of the day, u actually thinks the world revolves around u. Sorry to say this, Galileo had proven hundreds of years ago, that the world revolves around the sun and not you, no matter whether u r convinced or not. Nevertheless, I believe ignorance is bliss and a world with more happy ppl, is a better place for us all. Good day and god bless.

    However i cant help but dig up my most recent games with pros (ego u know). 150706783. the rest are too old to dig up.

    PS :- Valve and its co-conspirator IS out to get u. They wanna make u rage, they force u to play with noobs even though u r as pro as IG. And the CIA is involved somehow i assure u.
    Thanks for linking it. No, it really isn't about me. I am perfectly fine being placed in Normal Games, I just don't want to be paired with people who played only 10-20 games. So whatever you think, this isn't about me.

    From your match, I can see that all the players in the match has over 1.000 games played. Most of them are around 51% win-rate, but 1.000+ games, while the two pros have 68%+ win-rate, but also 1.000+ games.

    I can only come to the conslussion from this, that the High & Very High bracket are based on the amount of games played and not how well you perform. I doubt you can get to High or Very high within your first 50 games, it takes much more than that.

    Also, you confirmed my theory that you are in-fact quite retarded, seeing as you still believe this is a whine about me being placed with noobs. It isn't. It is about being placed with people that are New - not Bad

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    I can only come to the conslussion from this, that the High & Very High bracket are based on the amount of games played and not how well you perform. I doubt you can get to High or Very high within your first 50 games, it takes much more than that.
    Thats where u r wrong as i mentioned in my first post. U CAN get into very high bucket at ur 8th game. Just win ur first 7 games.

    PS In fact, maybe thats too hard for u. But just win ur first 4 games, and ull be in High Bucket.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
    Thats where u r wrong as i mentioned in my first post. U CAN get into very high bucket at ur 8th game. Just win ur first 7 games.
    You still don't provide a source for this. You gave me one source of playing with pros, which was with all players having 1.000+ games. That doesn't provide evidence for being able to get into the high/very high brackets at ur 8th game.

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