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Thread: Please stop harder difficulty bots from throwing games.

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  1. #1
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    Please stop harder difficulty bots from throwing games.

    So in the lower difficulties, when you are totally stomping a game yourself by racking up kills, bots take advantage of this by pushing lanes and also generally do well themselves. From hard difficulty upwards, especially when you play ganker heroes, bots completely throw the games even if you're doing well yourself. What I mean is this: Let's say I play a great ganker like Slark/Strygwir. We reach minute 15 or so with me having around 10 kills, while the opposing team and my team bots are doing equally well - except for the fact that, after i gank a lane and leave it defenseless, the bots will not push it with me, while the opponents will arrive to counterpush after they respawn, leading to a situation where I'm left alone against 3 or more bots to die. Moreover, the bots will initiate teamfights of 3v5 or worse odds against the opposing team, leading to their death and to huge pushes against us. Specifically, some support heroes are played extremely badly in such cases - for example a teamfight will be initiated by a dazzle, witch doctor and alleria, which has obviously a very low chance of success even discounting the fact that it's 3v5.

    Essentially, what I'm saying is this: bots are not aware at all of team strengths and weaknesses. They are not aware of what heroes are with them/against them, and what those heroes are capable of. I do not believe this mechanism is there to handicap you (i.e. you are playing well, so bots will play accordingly bad) since it does not happen in easier difficulties, however if I am wrong and this is the case, well then, I'd rather go back and play in the original DotA AI map instead. And obviously this is very frustrating.

    If someone wants, I will later today make 2 games where I demonstrate this and somehow upload the reviews if possible.

    On a side note, it would be good if the bots could play different strategies. Currently the only strategy seems to be fast pushing with multiple powerful AoE heroes. It would be nice to see bots that were capable of jungling/ganking/farm-type hard carrying as well.
    Last edited by Aethyr; 03-27-2013 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #2
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    I couldn't agree more with this. I don't know what it is but bots on the human side seem more likely to walk into silly attacks, attack short handed and all the rest of it. This does happen with all AI teams too but its less likely. Another annoying 'throwing the game' aspect I've seen is bots pursuing a low health target through numerous members of the enemy team and dying horribly.

    It's got to a stage where I know exactly how each engagement is going to play out and whether I should be there or not. If its a suicide attack I just go 'I'm going to farm and watch you all die horribly because if I go there, I'm just going to die horribly too'. Sure enough 4 of them walk head first into either Jakiro's Ice path, Earthshaker's fissure, Kunnka's boat, whatever, then get moped up one by one and make a four for zero trade most of the time. Bonus points if your team is under leveled/under farmed.

    I do agree however that this isn't a deliberate mechanic because I've seen both where the bots on your team absolutely stomp them for some reason despite me going some 5-0 early on, but it seems lately most of the time it's the other way around even if I'm doing equal to or worse then that but this can also can go either way if I'm playing a passive role and not getting many kills at all they still might have a solid game. It somewhat depends on the bot but even Viper I find is nowhere near as deadly on the human side, still the best, but not anywhere near as dangerous.
    Last edited by Peachrocks; 03-27-2013 at 12:42 PM.

  3. #3
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    Had a few more practice matches to verify what's going on, and especially the difference between hard and unfair. While i cannot be certain of this, I think the problem is the bonus exp and gold on unfair. On a hard difficulty, you can, with very good playing, counteract the fact that your team's bots are weaker. However, it seems that on unfair, enemy bots get an exp and gold bonus that is not applied to your team. This is not good practice at all. It causes the player to effectively play a 1v5. Your bots should also gain the bonus; That way, it depends on your own skill. If my assumption is wrong, then this needs to be looked into more thoroughly...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethyr View Post
    Had a few more practice matches to verify what's going on, and especially the difference between hard and unfair. While i cannot be certain of this, I think the problem is the bonus exp and gold on unfair. On a hard difficulty, you can, with very good playing, counteract the fact that your team's bots are weaker. However, it seems that on unfair, enemy bots get an exp and gold bonus that is not applied to your team. This is not good practice at all. It causes the player to effectively play a 1v5. Your bots should also gain the bonus; That way, it depends on your own skill. If my assumption is wrong, then this needs to be looked into more thoroughly...
    It is wrong. Just go to a dual lane on unfair and watch your laning partner outlevel you despite neither of you ever leaving XP range.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arxos View Post
    It is wrong. Just go to a dual lane on unfair and watch your laning partner outlevel you despite neither of you ever leaving XP range.
    Well then, this begs the question of why is it that the player's team plays so badly in comparison to the opposing one. In the last practice game I played, half of the heroes on my team were stuck on their early game items (boots, wand, a point booster, wards and tp scrolls, maybe cheap stat items), while the support heroes on the other team got up mek, pipe, veil, blademails, bloodstones and a ton of other shit as the game dragged on, even though their gold levels were pretty similar.

    As it is, "Unfair" is useless for practice. Hard difficulty is still fairly easy to beat though, despite the fact that bots still throw like bosses. So something needs to be done here.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethyr View Post
    Well then, this begs the question of why is it that the player's team plays so badly in comparison to the opposing one. In the last practice game I played, half of the heroes on my team were stuck on their early game items (boots, wand, a point booster, wards and tp scrolls, maybe cheap stat items), while the support heroes on the other team got up mek, pipe, veil, blademails, bloodstones and a ton of other shit as the game dragged on, even though their gold levels were pretty similar.

    As it is, "Unfair" is useless for practice. Hard difficulty is still fairly easy to beat though, despite the fact that bots still throw like bosses. So something needs to be done here.
    I think a big reason is just snowballing. On unfair, due to 25% increased gold/xp gain, if the bots gain some early kills it makes it that much easier to get more.
    The bots don't know how to play passive, if they just died in lane 6 times without getting a single kill they'll still return to lane and still stand in the same position as last time. And still, they will die.

    I had a match against unfair bots just now as a Rubick to try out the new BH bot. Given that it was with my modded bots, which I would hope alleviates this problem a little, but anyhow: I laned with Bounty Hunter at top against a VS+Sniper, did alright, got FB and another 2 kills.
    At this point I looked at bottom where a Lion+DK had already managed to feed 6 kills to a Zeus + CM combo. And they were rapidly working on increasing that number.
    I really just had to go down there and help out the lane, cause they were just constantly running in and killing themselves.
    It just snowballs and snowballs and I believe it may be the main cause of what you're observing.
    We still won that game handsomely by the way, are you actually having difficulties winning against unfair or do you mean useless for practice because of the manner in which you win?
    Generally speaking I find that you can win any game against bots by just split pushing like mad even if you're in a terrible position. It's not really useful practice as it'd never work against players, however. Generally I just keep the split pushing as a last resort, and I rarely have to use it. I find it most entertaining to just pick Rubick and go bonkers in team fights. (I basically play him whenever I can, be it players or bots)

    In regards to the whole snowballing thing, I really wonder just how much of a dramatic change BH bot will have on the bots... Quite frankly with their complete killfest of a playstyle they have usually due to their suicidal tendencies and complete disregard for positioning or timing, track must be pretty bonkers... I can easily imagine that BH could have as much of an impact on a bot game as Viper does.

  7. #7
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    Aren't ally bots always the same level? (Hard-level I think)

    That would cause the discrepancy between how well they do in and low difficulty game compared to a higher difficulty game.

  8. #8
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    Played a game with Unfair bots 4 on my side 5 on enemy in practice lobby. I picked nature prophet by the 10 min mark we were down by a bunch of kills :L while i was still in jungle farming. This was a long time ago. i think its standard for bots to do this ^^

  9. #9
    I didn't really know what OP was talking about until last night, when I accidentally played a bot game set to easy. I just farmed most of the game, and my remaining four bot allies played really smartly. They pushed together, Sand King ult-ed at appropriate times, they fell back when hurt, defended as a group, etc. Contrast this with Hard bots, which have no coordination at all.

  10. #10
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    Yup I haven't played much against the Easy or Medium bots in a while but I do remember that sometimes they'll win on their own on those difficulties which felt sometimes offputting but it beats having to cheese the AIs just to win because your team members throw the game.

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