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Thread: [Confirmed] Remaining Pounce bugs aka "what pounce doesnt bind"

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    [Confirmed] Remaining Pounce bugs aka "what pounce doesnt bind"

    the following spells are still able to break the leash of pounce when they were not able to in wc3 dota:

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneHobo View Post
    Ball Lightning levels 1, 2 and 3 still all break the leash instead of only level 3.
    Charge Of Darkness still breaks the leash at all levels.
    Life Break still breaks the leash.
    Hook still breaks the leash.
    Telekinesis still breaks the leash.
    Blinding Light still breaks the leash.
    Flamebreak still breaks the leash.
    Toss still breaks the leash.
    Power Cogs still break the leash.
    Tether still breaks the leash.
    Primal Roar still breaks the leash.
    Dark Seer's Vacum breaks the leash
    Quote Originally Posted by Noo View Post
    Rolling Boulder and Snowball, too.
    tested vacuum myself.
    all other interactions are based on testing from this thread: Pounce Bugs aka "what Pounce does and does not bind"


    p.s.: added to sticky.
    Last edited by bu3ny; 03-13-2014 at 11:12 AM.
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    Basic Member hoveringmover's Avatar
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    Bump.

    Since the above is nothing more than a list, I will comment on the implications to give people an idea of why this needs to be fixed.

    Charge of Darkness ignoring Pounce leash is a huge issue. Slark can't kill Spirit Breaker with his skill set alone and Spirit Breaker can stop Slark's regeneration. Slark should be able to kill Spirit Breaker with his skill set alone.

    Tether ignoring Pounce is an even bigger issue except that Io is not picked nearly as often. Slark should be a direct counter to Io due to Io's relatively low starting strength stat and/or strength growth and his Essence Shift but Io can very easily escape anytime all game long while unintended, it's very messy for balance!

    Pudge's Meat Hook is once again a ridiculous spell that practically forces Slark to buy Blink Dagger against Pudge no matter what. You can't reliably trap anyone against Pudge, the best you can hope for is to burst enemies down quickly, and that's not conducive to fighting effectively against Pudge. Once again, we are breaking the balance.

    Toss is against the balance. Obviously Tiny can be difficult to kill as it is with passive stunning, adding on a way for him to(almost reliably?) get his ally out of Slark's traps seems like it isn't possible to do the logical thing easily, which creates absurd balance implications, namely to try and kill the easier to kill heroes first and tackle the tougher one later.

    Flamebreak is going to be relevant if Batrider(or Rubick if Batrider is on the other team) is on your team. He breaks your Pounce leash with it and then suddenly the amazing synergy between the two heroes is missing which was always a thing in the original game.

    Life Break once again is a problem much like Io's Tether. This time however it's on a hero with a strong combat rivalry(as opposed to map control rivalry) with Slark and it feels rather unfair that he can't keep him held down. Life Break with Aghanim's Scepter can be cast even more often than Pounce, turning it from a nuisance of a bug to a terrifying experience.

    Vacuum seems that it would only be relevant in the case of the hero using the ability being on your team. If the Slark player or his ally are not aware of this interaction, it makes for some frustrating scenes and otherwise can result in unnecessary flaming of the Slark player for supposedly missing his Pounce. I for one knew about this bug but other people regularly don't believe me and still trash talk me sometimes when they Vacuum someone that I've pounced and they expect me to I don't know, Black Hole them or something, as a Slark.

    Telekinesis? No comment.

    Blinding Light is just like the issue with Batrider's Flamebreak. In fact it actually hurts the chances of you winning the fight more than the Batrider issue even though it isn't technically as big of a balance concern. It is more like the Vacuum bug in that it does something you don't want it to do, but the fact that you can't use it how it's intended if it has this big of a drawback namely attempting to help a potential 'duel between heroes' with a high chance to miss for the opponent by removing the trap that allows them to get away and avoid the duel that Slark initiated by leashing them with his Pounce. When using Vacuum, we are merely wanting to deal some extra damage, while Batrider wanted to make exhaustive use of Slark's leash but was unable to, but Keeper of the Light(or Rubick) was trying to help Slark steal some attributes. Much more relevant to Slark than it is to Keeper of the Light, in contrast to the Batrider bug.

    Power Cogs if I understand the issue correctly, is making for a big problem again, potentially greater than that of the Flamebreak problem. This puts a damper on the synergy between the two heroes once again, meaning that you cannot flank the enemies effectively since they can't be trapped and zapped properly. Really not fair as far as hero combinations go, this is one of the fun ones, yet it isn't working at the moment to its fullest potential.

    Primal Roar is an ability that I'm not incredibly familiar with as not many people play him so often. Once again, I believe this is an issue between Map Control Experts working together. At the moment, Bounty Hunter is a notable example of a hero that specializes in Map Control that works well with Slark, while a hero like Night Stalker still suffers from the tower circling bug and obviously doesn't win games in general. As for Clockwerk and Batrider, they are both Map Control Experts as is Beastmaster, and they like Night Stalker are suffering from bugs. It just so happens that the bug affecting Nightstalker affects every hero in the game and has no relevance to Slark personally(other than when he has his ultimate on or otherwise has a haste rune or too many movement speed items like any regular hero, not to mention it hurts Surge as well). Beastmaster on the other hand has one of the strongest ultimates in the game and if it isn't working quite the way it should, that could be a problem. I believe what we're looking at here is the potential for Slark to trap one hero and Beastmaster to stun another, but Primal Roar pushes the trapped hero out of danger! Even if Beastmaster is oblivious to what Slark is doing I suppose this could happen quite easily.

    Ball Lightning is a skill that allows Storm Spirit to be able to escape from level 6 to level 15 against Slark, and that is silly. One of Slark's problems is that he doesn't deal with heroes that are invulnerable very well. Typically he has his advantages against them to make up for this inherent weakness of his that he needs to be able to target them, while technically this rule of thumb is applicable to all heroes, it is a problem that affects Slark more severely. These advantages are things such as Morphling not being able to use Morph to its fullest potential against Slark, or Void's backtrack not really helping much against Essence Shift. But against Storm Spirit, what was his advantage? It was being the better flash farming hero and having the edge in early engagements. Storm could still crush Slark with some teamwork on his end, but now Storm just needs to get a relatively good start and suddenly he's pure chaos for Slark and it's too difficult for Slark to put an end to the snowball effect. Overall I'm not sure that it's a major balance concern when you compare Storm Spirit to someone like Bloodseeker(definitely not referring to the bug in this thread where units that are basically being considered as projectiles are breaking leashes, which is why all these examples are listed and other examples also have their own threads, that one needs fixing like nothing else) or Ember Spirit, but it is an inconsistency and the opinion of a Slark player is here for you to amuse yourself with. I think if they can fix the allied interactions so that heroes like Clockwerk and Batrider have the intended synergy with Slark, such a minor thing like Storm Spirit being a little too good against Slark can be forgiven.
    Last edited by hoveringmover; 03-02-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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    Ball lightning, tether, hookshot and Charge are the most important.

    Especially ball lightning non lvl3 should not break it and would make slark a decent coutner against storm. Right now its useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoveringmover View Post
    Bump.

    Since the above is nothing more than a list, I will comment on the implications to give people an idea of why this needs to be fixed.

    Charge of Darkness ignoring Pounce leash is a huge issue. Slark can't kill Spirit Breaker with his skill set alone and Spirit Breaker can stop Slark's regeneration. Slark should be able to kill Spirit Breaker with his skill set alone.

    Tether ignoring Pounce is an even bigger issue except that Io is not picked nearly as often. Slark should be a direct counter to Io due to Io's relatively low starting strength stat and/or strength growth and his Essence Shift but Io can very easily escape anytime all game long while unintended, it's very messy for balance!

    Pudge's Meat Hook is once again a ridiculous spell that practically forces Slark to buy Blink Dagger against Pudge no matter what. You can't reliably trap anyone against Pudge, the best you can hope for is to burst enemies down quickly, and that's not conducive to fighting effectively against Pudge. Once again, we are breaking the balance.

    Toss is against the balance. Obviously Tiny can be difficult to kill as it is with passive stunning, adding on a way for him to(almost reliably?) get his ally out of Slark's traps seems like it isn't possible to do the logical thing easily, which creates absurd balance implications, namely to try and kill the easier to kill heroes first and tackle the tougher one later.

    Flamebreak is going to be relevant if Batrider(or Rubick if Batrider is on the other team) is on your team. He breaks your Pounce leash with it and then suddenly the amazing synergy between the two heroes is missing which was always a thing in the original game.

    Life Break once again is a problem much like Io's Tether. This time however it's on a hero with a strong combat rivalry(as opposed to map control rivalry) with Slark and it feels rather unfair that he can't keep him held down. Life Break with Aghanim's Scepter can be cast even more often than Pounce, turning it from a nuisance of a bug to a terrifying experience.

    Vacuum seems that it would only be relevant in the case of the hero using the ability being on your team. If the Slark player or his ally are not aware of this interaction, it makes for some frustrating scenes and otherwise can result in unnecessary flaming of the Slark player for supposedly missing his Pounce. I for one knew about this bug but other people regularly don't believe me and still trash talk me sometimes when they Vacuum someone that I've pounced and they expect me to I don't know, Black Hole them or something, as a Slark.

    Telekinesis? No comment.

    Blinding Light is just like the issue with Batrider's Flamebreak. In fact it actually hurts the chances of you winning the fight more than the Batrider issue even though it isn't technically as big of a balance concern. It is more like the Vacuum bug in that it does something you don't want it to do, but the fact that you can't use it how it's intended if it has this big of a drawback namely attempting to help a potential 'duel between heroes' with a high chance to miss for the opponent by removing the trap that allows them to get away and avoid the duel that Slark initiated by leashing them with his Pounce. When using Vacuum, we are merely wanting to deal some extra damage, while Batrider wanted to make exhaustive use of Slark's leash but was unable to, but Keeper of the Light(or Rubick) was trying to help Slark steal some attributes. Much more relevant to Slark than it is to Keeper of the Light, in contrast to the Batrider bug.

    Power Cogs if I understand the issue correctly, is making for a big problem again, potentially greater than that of the Flamebreak problem. This puts a damper on the synergy between the two heroes once again, meaning that you cannot flank the enemies effectively since they can't be trapped and zapped properly. Really not fair as far as hero combinations go, this is one of the fun ones, yet it isn't working at the moment to its fullest potential.

    Primal Roar is an ability that I'm not incredibly familiar with as not many people play him so often. Once again, I believe this is an issue between Map Control Experts working together. At the moment, Bounty Hunter is a notable example of a hero that specializes in Map Control that works well with Slark, while a hero like Night Stalker still suffers from the tower circling bug and obviously doesn't win games in general. As for Clockwerk and Batrider, they are both Map Control Experts as is Beastmaster, and they like Night Stalker are suffering from bugs. It just so happens that the bug affecting Nightstalker affects every hero in the game and has no relevance to Slark personally(other than when he has his ultimate on or otherwise has a haste rune or too many movement speed items like any regular hero, not to mention it hurts Surge as well). Beastmaster on the other hand has one of the strongest ultimates in the game and if it isn't working quite the way it should, that could be a problem. I believe what we're looking at here is the potential for Slark to trap one hero and Beastmaster to stun another, but Primal Roar pushes the trapped hero out of danger! Even if Beastmaster is oblivious to what Slark is doing I suppose this could happen quite easily.

    Ball Lightning is a skill that allows Storm Spirit to be able to escape from level 6 to level 15 against Slark, and that is silly. One of Slark's problems is that he doesn't deal with heroes that are invulnerable very well. Typically he has his advantages against them to make up for this inherent weakness of his that he needs to be able to target them, while technically this rule of thumb is applicable to all heroes, it is a problem that affects Slark more severely. These advantages are things such as Morphling not being able to use Morph to its fullest potential against Slark, or Void's backtrack not really helping much against Essence Shift. But against Storm Spirit, what was his advantage? It was being the better flash farming hero and having the edge in early engagements. Storm could still crush Slark with some teamwork on his end, but now Storm just needs to get a relatively good start and suddenly he's pure chaos for Slark and it's too difficult for Slark to put an end to the snowball effect. Overall I'm not sure that it's a major balance concern when you compare Storm Spirit to someone like Bloodseeker(definitely not referring to the bug in this thread where units that are basically being considered as projectiles are breaking leashes, which is why all these examples are listed and other examples also have their own threads, that one needs fixing like nothing else) or Ember Spirit, but it is an inconsistency and the opinion of a Slark player is here for you to amuse yourself with. I think if they can fix the allied interactions so that heroes like Clockwerk and Batrider have the intended synergy with Slark, such a minor thing like Storm Spirit being a little too good against Slark can be forgiven.
    A lot of words about an OP hero.

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    Rolling Boulder and Snowball, too.

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    Has this been fixed yet? Also are there any abilities that actually are meant to break the leash like Blink from AM and QoP?

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    Also are there any abilities that actually are meant to break the leash like Blink from AM and QoP?
    Burrowstrike, Time Walk, Waveform

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    Might aswell remove Life Break, since spell immunity is suposed to dispel it. It doesn't technically dispel it, but breaking it is at least close to that.
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    i feel this is a "this hero counter my skills, pls nerf" thread, a lot of different skills interactions between W3 Dota and dota 2 were due to engine limitations, here basically its a new game, new mechanics. people need understand Dota 2 is "based" and isnt an "exactly copy" of Dota W3. and devs are trying to avoid heroes who "counter everything" like old Doom, Void and Legion Commander. here slark isnt a counter to all the movement and positionating skills/items, must exist exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadSkull View Post
    i feel this is a "this hero counter my skills, pls nerf" thread, a lot of different skills interactions between W3 Dota and dota 2 were due to engine limitations, here basically its a new game, new mechanics. people need understand Dota 2 is "based" and isnt an "exactly copy" of Dota W3. and devs are trying to avoid heroes who "counter everything" like old Doom, Void and Legion Commander. here slark isnt a counter to all the movement and positionating skills/items, must exist exceptions.
    I can understand your position. Out of this list, let me go over how unfair I think each skill is currently with the way they are actually working at the moment. Then perhaps you can see clearly which problems are bigger than others.

    Spirit Breaker - Completely unfair because he counters Slark in everything. However, in 6.82, charge has been tweaked so that a 0(or near to 0) cooldown charge is no longer possible. What this means is that it might now be possible for Slark to take advantage of a big mistake that Spirit Breaker would make, although he does have a relatively small window of opportunity. He didn't have it before the latest patch. Scale from 1 to 10 on how unfair it is for Slark? 10 before the latest patch, Now it's about an 8 or a 9.

    Io - Pretty unfair considering that Slark's main advantage against Io is his combat capabilities. With Io having access to a get out of jail free card against Slark, the only disadvantage Io had can be lost at any time. Unfair for Slark on a scale from 1 to 10 would be about a 7.

    Pudge - Absolutely absurd. It's a zero risk stunt with a full reward pay off for Pudge to attempt. At least an 8 on the unfairness scale.

    Tiny - Although it may require a bit more skill and/or teamwork to pull off than the Pudge interaction, it's potential for unfairness is outrageous. It's also a zero risk stunt although the reward pay off is usually questionable, it remains high consistently as the chaos that comes of it is nothing less than remarkable. Considering Tiny's style of play, his need to counter Slark on some level outweighs the monstrosity of the stunt to offset the unfairness scale to 8 rather than something higher. Pudge on the other hand scales much better with items than Tiny does(in particular with regards to his dealings with Slark).

    Batrider - As a hero combination that is very fun and dangerous, and Dota 2 should have lots of these, this lack of synergy can be rated no less than a 10 on the unfairness scale.

    Huskar - Considering that Huskar doesn't do as much damage at low health as before, Slark's rivalry with Huskar isn't as strong as before. It is still there. It's a bit unfair, but it could be a lot worse. On the unfairness scale, I'd give it a 4.

    Dark Seer - Considering that there is potential for great abuse on the part of the Dark Seer player, this can receive nothing less than an 8 on the unfairness scale.

    Rubick - I have not played the hero enough to know everything about it, but I assume it works both as Slark's ally and as his enemy. As his ally, I'm not sure if I think it has the same potential for abuse as the Dark Seer's Vacuum. As a result, I do not know what to rate it. Maybe a 5 on the unfairness scale? As for Rubick as an enemy, I'm unsure of how it all works and I have my doubts that everything is as intended or not.

    Keeper of the Light - This is just ridiculous because it not only breaks the leash, but it also gives no incentive for the target of his Slark ally to actually stay around and fight. With them missing 80 percent of their attacks, the decision to retreat is effectively the easiest one they have made all game. Unfairness scale? Easily beyond the limit. 15/10.

    Clockwerk - I'm not sure how fair I can be with the unfairness scale in this situation because this combination could be outrageously strong depending on how Cogs are officially intended to work. So I'll just make it 9/10, being roughly accurate.

    Beastmaster - The potential for abuse is quite high, and considering the roles that the heroes perform, this is unacceptable. I give it 11/10 on the unfairness scale.

    Storm Spirit - He can be a brutal lane opponent in the early levels, but it's not like it's cheap in mana cost to break the leash, I think. I'm not too sure since I haven't been playing Storm Spirit a lot against Slark. I'm probably biased, so I don't know what to rate this, but I personally feel it should be around 1 to 4 out of 10 on the unfairness scale.


    So, from least unfair to most unfair I present a simple list of heroes from those abilities listed.
    Storm Spirit
    Huskar
    Rubick
    Io
    Dark Seer
    Tiny
    Pudge
    Spirit Breaker
    Clockwerk
    Batrider
    Beastmaster
    Keeper of the Light


    I would reckon personally that anything underneath Io needs to be fixed for sure. Anything above Io is not that big of a deal(although it is for sure unfair, I personally don't mind if it is never fixed if we have to negotiate for only some of the fixes instead of all of them rather than just wait and wait for nothing to be ever fixed), and I personally don't know which side of the fence Io should be on.

    As you can see, 5/8 of the interactions that I'm insisting must be fixed are allied interactions and not enemy interactions. Technically the Tiny interaction can also be considered as from an ally, but I see nothing unintentional about it as an abuse. However, it's worth taking a look at I suppose as to whether or not it should be possible. I personally feel like Tiny and Pudge should be heroes played by skillful players, but not everyone agrees. So it's not as though I'm only trying to get 'Slark Counters' dealt with here, as even a sixth(or even seventh in the case of Pudge, but once again that would have to be intentional ability abuse, which doesn't really matter as much since yes it is unfair, but people are losing on purpose so why complain about it? Oh wait, we do that all the time, don't we...nobody likes to lose because they have a dumb and greedy ally) of the eight interactions are applicable as Slark's ally. The only interaction I still think needs to be fixed that is exclusively applying to Slark as his enemy is the Spirit Breaker's charge. And that is only because he can cancel Slark's regeneration every 12 seconds while the Charge of Darkness is going.
    Last edited by hoveringmover; 10-11-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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