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Thread: [Suggestion] True AP mode for a more balanced experience

  1. #1
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    [Suggestion] True AP mode for a more balanced experience

    Valve/Icefrog has stated some time ago:
    One goal we have for Dota 2 is to have as many people playing and enjoying the game as possible. To do so, we suspected we’d need to encourage behaviors that have positive effects on the game and community and discourage behaviors that have the opposite effect- like causing other players to play less or not at all or to discourage them from trying out the game in the first place.
    AP mode goes somewhat contrary to the last stated. After the changes of 78 the contrast in fact is even more outstanding. The 100 GOLD fee to those randomers that swap with someone else, will only cause people to not want to swap even on bad situations caused by the culprit of the discrepancy randoming.

    (Regarding swaping)
    Randomers want to play with any hero, so logically the act of swaping is already something secondary and improbable. Randoming is encouraged by giving extra gold incentive. Taking away some of that incentive will only cause swapping to be MORE improbable and not otherwise. Hence, this change will reduce swaping and not randoming which is the real issue here. If you want to truly solve the swapping situation in which player X randoms, player Y picks player's X best hero and then swap (which by the way with .78 change player X still has gold advantage), the true solution is to completely remove the incentives to randoming.

    Randoming creates an environment of discord and imbalance which in the end motivates bad behavior. Only in modes equalized in this regards are unaffected as all players are subject to the same risk. However, players that want a quick mode to PICK and try something out (a hero, an item build, a strategy with a partner) are usually forced to do something else because of this imbalance (gold advantage and more importantly bad randoms). How many times have you been the sandbag of the team (only support for example) because of 3-4 bad randoms (bad randoms being ether, a hero which the player don't know how to use well or a hero that has no synergy with the team). Or how many times have you picked to counter/practice and face a randomer with that extra gold thus providing him with more items than usual: 2 salves + 1 clarity or 1 stout shield or 1 slippers of agility and a salve or a courier upgrade or a smoke of deceit + a set of sentries, etc. Randoming should be discouraged instead of encouraged in a mode which picking is the main factor. How can you motivate behaviors that brings positive effects on the game and community by maintaining something so illogical and unequal all round.

    Going back to what Valve/Icefrog stated, AP mode is incredibly important in this matter. It is probably the most played mode by the casual gamers. The mode is unique enough to be irreplaceable by current alternatives as there is no other quick start mode which let you pick any hero without exceptions. If you want viewers you need a healthy casual community. So start by improving the obvious, the mode that casual dota players play. Giving incentive bonus to those who random in a "picking" mode, encourages randoming, which as mentioned creates a bad behavior environment and an overall game imbalance that turns off a lot of players.

    The suggestion:
    Create a new mode: True AP, in which players has no incentive from randoming, thus equalizing starting gold and encouraging people to pick. Starting gold equality all round, will remove advantages which can be serious and even game breaking for some (Regen pooling, items rushing, lane regen/support superiority). More importantly people forced or encouraged to pick allows for higher chances of better role picking decisions or lane/lineup balancing. This in the end will result in a more balanced experience that the overall player base can enjoy.

    edit: grammar
    edit: changed the post a little bit, so that people won't confuse "randoming is a bad factor" with "encouraged randoming through incentives in AP is a bad factor".
    Last edited by Dyslogic; 06-12-2013 at 04:30 PM.

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    Oddly enough I agree with you. I really don't care what is done with that trash mode AP but I feel like if people can't random in AP more people will play AR.

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    Even though randomers would go to play AR instead of AP (which adds to the diversification of modes) AP/True AP will bring more (new?) players because of the improved balance/behavior state of the mode.

    Remember that people like to play AP because it is the quickest mode in which you can try out specific heroes, strategies, item builds etc... Randoms not only destroy the original intention of many players that want to play ALL PICK (even the name suggest that all must pick...) it creates imbalances to the table.

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    Basic Member Kaneomanie's Avatar
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    For the second suggestion go to playdota.com, for the first one I honestly think it's not neccesary to implement that, random gold isn't that much to give a gamebraking advantage even if a good pick is randomed, risk and reward IDK.
    Last edited by Kaneomanie; 06-09-2013 at 04:27 AM.

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    How is randoming worse than regen pooling? People pick strong hero, buy WB or NT and get regen from a support teammate. 100 times more imbalanced. Odds of getting terrible random hero outweigh a little bonus gold.

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    Actually my biggest issue is that you keep talking about "True AP" because people want to "try out specific heros, strategies, item builds etc..." and that players that random force the players that pick to pick around the people that random, but think about it this way. A team of five people, all want to try out something new, but the 5 different heros they want to try it out with have absolutely no synergy with each other - at most only 1 or 2 of them are actually going to get an opportunity to try out the hero or strategy they wanted to. The other 3-4 players are going to have to pick around those 1 or 2 players anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. And for all you know, the randoms are going to result in a team that supports whatever you want to try out anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamelLord View Post
    Actually my biggest issue is that you keep talking about "True AP" because people want to "try out specific heros, strategies, item builds etc..." and that players that random force the players that pick to pick around the people that random, but think about it this way. A team of five people, all want to try out something new, but the 5 different heros they want to try it out with have absolutely no synergy with each other - at most only 1 or 2 of them are actually going to get an opportunity to try out the hero or strategy they wanted to. The other 3-4 players are going to have to pick around those 1 or 2 players anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. And for all you know, the randoms are going to result in a team that supports whatever you want to try out anyway
    People picking around other picks will always happen in AP, random or not. However, everyone will be in the same situation, thus the chances that any player has to try out/practice his/her strategy is equal for everyone. Removing randoms increases the chances for pickers to do what they want. Also this is not the only issue here and not as important as the imbalances that comes into play from bad random picks which is at the same time of greater importance than gold advantage. Learning all the heroes well enough is a daunting task, randoming a bad hero (don't know how to play it well or it not being good for the line up) is more likely to happen than if you were forced to pick. If you are forced to choose, then by definition your pick will be intentional, thus lowering the chances of picking a bad role for the line up (no need for a third carry for example, which could have been the case if you random) and even if you are not "skilled" with the picked hero the overall experience for everyone will be better as it will be a needed hero/role.

    It is all about lowering the chances of having a horrible imbalanced game. If by removing the incentive from randomers you get a more balanced game (because of less random picks and equal starting gold), then sometimes I wouldn't mind picking around some other heroes.
    Last edited by Dyslogic; 06-09-2013 at 12:55 PM.

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    Basic Member DarkLite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Treads View Post
    How is randoming worse than regen pooling? People pick strong hero, buy WB or NT and get regen from a support teammate. 100 times more imbalanced. Odds of getting terrible random hero outweigh a little bonus gold.
    But the total amount of gold in play remains the same. Giving more items to one hero comes at the expense of reducing another hero's money. Randoming breaks this rule. It allows regen pooling or rushing better items with no drawback to anyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLite View Post
    But the total amount of gold in play remains the same. Giving more items to one hero comes at the expense of reducing another hero's money. Randoming breaks this rule. It allows regen pooling or rushing better items with no drawback to anyone.
    This.

    Another example of random gold advantage imbalance.

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