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Thread: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

  1. #41
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    All stats are farmable.

    The only solution to the match making problem is a diversity of leagues managed by the players. Top down solutions are all destined for failure, criticism and frustration.

  2. #42
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    With mute system I agree. I get muted right now probably because I failed at one game but +3 team mates failed even more. They just for some reason didn't liked that I picked that hero and put all blame on me. Said nothing to them, didn't argue but get muted. All other games from last mute was fine. Just really sucks that only 3 days I had chance right now to play not being muted. People like to mute if someone plays bad.

    Being muted, takes a lot fun away at game. Players might seriously begin to leave Dota 2 because of getting no fun because of being muted.

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    Getting matched by performance actually kinda bad, better would be matched by win rate. At least people would look differently to players. They would know how good someone plays having 55% win rate, 60% and of course 65%-70% win rates having players would have because of playing at parties. As achieving 70% win rate is impossible alone at Dota.
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    Talking about your opinion. Agree with everything you said.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    A working system would have a true 50/50 winrate.
    In a perfect world, yes. The world isn't perfect. A given individual's skill level will fluctuate based on a number of variables (personal well being, team composition, character used, etc...) which will cause them to adjust up and down in rating slightly. Even then it's only 100% effective if the player only players games using the matchmaking system, ever. Any games played outside of the system (tournaments, practice games, hell even dota 1) will cause the player's win/loss and/or skill level to fluctuate in ways which will throw the system off.
    For instance;
    If you spent a few days practicing your micro in Dota 1 (or really any RTS) your actual skill level will no longer match your ELO rating. As a result you'll likely have a bit of a win streak before the system compensates for your improvement.


    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    But having a 50/50 winrate doesn't mean the system is working.
    Strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    I won this game two days ago. But I'm still complaining because of what happened.

    I checked the games played (in game, not in Dotabuff) of my teammates, and I saw that the Death Prophet and the Shadow Shaman were very close to me while the Doom and the Sniper both only played one-fourth of the games we had played. On the other team, it seemed that the Luna and Mirana had played about as many games as the Sniper and the Doom; I can't remember the rest, but they may have been close to DP, SS, and me.

    I guess strictly speaking, the teams were "even," but you can't tell me that games like this won't be coinflips because whoever got matched with the worse newer players will likely lose.
    The system will account for you having a lower "ranked" team, that's what a team based ELO does. ELO is NOT tracking pure win/loss, it accounts for relative skill levels of all parties involved.

    Also; unless you take a cross section of at least 1000 games you don't have anything statistically relevant. Showing a single game (or even a handful) doesn't even being to constitute evidence.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rirekon View Post
    In a perfect world, yes. The world isn't perfect. A given individual's skill level will fluctuate based on a number of variables (personal well being, team composition, character used, etc...) which will cause them to adjust up and down in rating slightly. Even then it's only 100% effective if the player only players games using the matchmaking system, ever. Any games played outside of the system (tournaments, practice games, hell even dota 1) will cause the player's win/loss and/or skill level to fluctuate in ways which will throw the system off.
    For instance;
    If you spent a few days practicing your micro in Dota 1 (or really any RTS) your actual skill level will no longer match your ELO rating. As a result you'll likely have a bit of a win streak before the system compensates for your improvement.
    Lol, you talk about how 50/50 is "what you'll trend towards as the system tries to match you against/with people of a similar skill level" and then back off from that with "the world isn't perfect."

    Strawman.
    You argued in favor of the MM system "working." So, no straw man here.

    The system will account for you having a lower "ranked" team, that's what a team based ELO does. ELO is NOT tracking pure win/loss, it accounts for relative skill levels of all parties involved.
    This goes back to what I said: "I guess strictly speaking, the teams were 'even,' but you can't tell me that games like this won't be coinflips because whoever got matched with the worse newer players will likely lose."
    We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



    merci fenix

  5. #45
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    Thank you sir .. respect+

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    Lol, you talk about how 50/50 is "what you'll trend towards as the system tries to match you against/with people of a similar skill level" and then back off from that with "the world isn't perfect."
    I haven't backed off from it at all. Saying something will trend towards [x] doesn't mean it will ever reach it, hence the "trend" and not "meet"/"reach"/etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    You argued in favor of the MM system "working." So, no straw man here.
    Yeah, that really was a strawman. It was a meaningless statement in the context of this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by erik-the-red View Post
    This goes back to what I said: "I guess strictly speaking, the teams were 'even,' but you can't tell me that games like this won't be coinflips because whoever got matched with the worse newer players will likely lose."
    That's not where my statement goes at all.
    "Strictly speaking" the teams probably weren't even, but that doesn't matter as far as your personal rating as the system will account for that imbalance.

    What we're actually discussing are two systems;
    1. The rating system system which attempts to assign a number (actually two, but whatever) to your skill current skill level relative to other players at any given moment
    2. The matchmaking system which attempts to create games of players with ratings (see 1.) which are as close as possible, without making people wait hours for a game.

    The combination of these two systems is working as far as any of us can see. Players are trending towards a 50/50 win rate, which is the marker of the systems working.

    The only ones who know to what degree the system is working are Valve, as they are the only ones with access to the full data.

    Additional edit;
    So to clarify. The world isn't perfect so you're going to have games where there's a larger than desired discrepancy in skill/rating. However in the long run these games don't matter as the trend will largely be true (baring previously mentioned ways of messing with the system).
    Last edited by Rirekon; 06-14-2013 at 11:24 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rirekon View Post
    I haven't backed off from it at all. Saying something will trend towards [x] doesn't mean it will ever reach it, hence the "trend" and not "meet"/"reach"/etc..
    Then don't say stuff like (paraphrased) "oh, but we won't ever have a perfect MM system, and so you will never have a 50/50 winrate."

    Yeah, that really was a strawman. It was a meaningless statement in the context of this discussion.
    First, "meaningless statement in the context of this discussion" is a red herring, not a strawman. Second, what I said was not a red herring, and I'll repeat it: a 50/50 winrate doesn't mean MM is working.

    That's not where my statement goes at all.
    "Strictly speaking" the teams probably weren't even, but that doesn't matter as far as your personal rating as the system will account for that imbalance.
    Why weren't they even? Both had 3 players with ~800 matches played and 2 players with ~200 matches played. That's why I said STRICTLY SPEAKING, the teams probably were "even," but these matches are basically coinflips; whoever gets the worse ~200 matches played players will likely lose.
    We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



    merci fenix

  8. #48
    Basic Member Djdkdjdkdjdk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimmY View Post
    Matchmaking needs tuning indeed. Gabe said himself that MM is bad and they're working on that.

    Mute system is ok and have nothing against it.

    Report system is not that bad either. Maybe 4-5 reports per week would be better.
    Gabe said that MM is bad A LONG TIME AGO. Also the mute system SHOULD BE REMOVED. There was already a mute built into the scoreboard, there was no need for them to add ANOTHER mute. The report system is actually HORRIBLE, it is automated and the 2 reports per week is by far the worst idea I have ever seen. They put it in I believe 1-2 months ago? They haven't even TOUCHED it in these past few weeks. There have been multiple complaints, I posted this thread to show my point of view and how it has affected me.

  9. #49
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    i posted this in another thread

    The matchmaking is awful at the moment everyone knows that, if you have a lossing streak you are going have a team around 700/1500+ wins to be paired against people with 100/500 wins, if you are on a winning streak is the other way around a team with 100/300 wins while you have around 700/800 wins and your enemy they are all with 700/1000+ wins. But hey thats good balance

    Now if you put in the almost 200 pages on the " one sided matchmaking " post, you have the mother of the failed matchmakings.

    i think that no one wants a 100% win rate for all games, but if you are forcing a 50/50 win rate after a winning streak you should be paired against more skilled players or why not any available "pro" teams, to have a match where you actually could learn something and test your skills, not to be matched with braindmg people that pick a support but dont help, dont ward and build a support wannabe "carry" and in the last hour cry in all chat because the match is lost.

  10. #50
    Basic Member Djdkdjdkdjdk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaos View Post
    Agree with OP.

    Unfortunately I doubt that Valve will listen.

    All the issues listed here have been raised many times over.
    Still they spend their resources coding a punishment system..... (the same type that was used by cavemen)
    If this energy was put into a better match making system the amount of problems in the game would decrease drastically.

    Well I guess its their game.
    DOTA was built by the community now Valve decides to ignore the community.
    I guess they know better.
    Valve will listen if more and more people complain about it. It has been raised many times over and nothing has been done about it. Also I agree with that making a better matchmaking would solve some things. In my opinion they should first remove the automated mute system then focus on the report system then fix up the matchmaking. It isn't their game. "They" made it, "they" licensed it, however... over 3,000,000+++ of us play it. Its our game and if enough people realize this we can change it. Like I said if they fixed and or removed the automated system and mended the matchmaking it would benefit Valve in the long run A LOT. More people will have pleasant experiences and more people will stay and get addicted rather than being discouraged and leaving early.

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