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Thread: Communication Suggests from a Veteran DotA Player

  1. #11
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    Nope. Terrible abusable idea. We already have people just farming wins by one person feeding another person on opposing team. This can only end up in similar behavior...

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    Do not take this the wrong way, I do my best to genuinely assist any proposed solution-- but I think the solution you have posed is ill-fit for the current state of the game. I am not saying the current mute system is perfect either. If I had to choose between the two I would favor the mute system over your proposed one.
    I'm not going to respond to much of what this guy said because he spent more time in ridicule (ad hominem attack) than actually making valid points.

    Let's say a commend can only happen at the end of a successful game (i.e. no one drops and the game completes). And let's say you limited it to where only ONE PERSON COULD COMMEND YOU PER GAME. Just throwing "what ifs" out there because I honestly don't believe this "scrub-zero" guy stopped to think about this before he posted his comments. If this were the case, that means Valve could put out a 100 commends to get an item bonus. That would mean a little over one game per day (provided you got commended at all).
    Now, let's say this person was a total jerk in game, calling names (like "scrub-zero" did a lot of in his post), and ridiculing other players. NO ONE... will commend this guy, except his friends. And that means, in order to get his commendations, he would have to have 100 friends, and have to play with each of his 100 friends over the course of three months. (Assuming all his friends want to commend him.) This is already highly unlikely, and that rare instance is not what Valve is concentrating on. They are concentrating on the average player, which doesn't have 100 friends, and if they do, they don't play with them often at all (which means they don't really know them enough to warrant just commending another player). (or up it to 150, or 200)
    Valve could even limit the amount of times you can commend other players to 5 per day. There's all sorts of options to answer these complaints from "Scrub-Zero."

    "Scrub-Zero" obviously spent little-to-no time thinking about this, because he limited the options of the concept to only what I listed in the initial post. He also claims that my post assumes the best in people, when in fact its the opposite because it assumes everyone is selfish and self-serving, and this provides a system that will use that self-serving motivation to make a friendlier community. For example, Valve already does this. Why doesn't Valve just rely on donations alone? Why do they offer items for sale? Because people have a selfish motivation, and are more likely to hand over money when they GET SOMETHING IN RETURN! Just as "Scrub-Zero's" motivation to write his post was to glorify himself and make himself seem more intelligent (providing no real suggestions or solutions to help the community), thus I sought to use that same selfish motivation in the community to solve the problem, just as Valve already does.

    And the problem we have with what's happening on the forums, and THE REASON VALVE IS NOT LISTENING TO US, is because everyone seems to only want to complain, rather than offer another solution, which is exactly what we have just seen from "Scrub-Zero". I believe people like "Scrub-Zero" are part of the problem that Valve is ignoring right now, why they're not hearing us, and though he says he's trying to help, his post proves otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    People hate this system, they would support anything so long as the current mute system gets abolished.
    As a final note, I would like to translate that sentence for those of you who didn't understand what he just said. He just said that he's smart, and you're dumb. You're so stupid and emotional, you would just accept anything. Scrub-Zero thinks you're too dumb to see what would work and what wouldn't. He's going to object to this paragraph, but that is exactly what he just implied by what he said, and if you guys aren't offended by this, you ought to be.
    We don't need this kind of negative input to solve this problem because it's not logical, and it just wastes everyone's time.

    For everyone else, thank you for your continued support and suggestions on improvement of this system, and I hope Valve will take this into serious consideration. It would be great that they start rewarding the good players for good behavior.

  3. #13
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    Ok and after reading your last post now I'm confident that you are just stupid as a bonus to a shit idea.

    EDIT: @CvP: Just so you know there are A LOT of things that they can do stop abuse in current system. But guess what, it's been 2 months now? And basically no improvements have been done. What is the point of making a whole NEW system and then trying to improve it when according to Valve they already have one that's working perfectly...
    Last edited by max1c; 07-03-2013 at 06:19 AM.

  4. #14
    Basic Member Scrub-Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I'm not going to respond to much of what this guy(Me, Scrub-Zero) said because he spent more time in ridicule (ad hominem attack) than actually making valid points.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    Just throwing "what ifs" out there because I honestly don't believe this "scrub-zero" guy stopped to think about this before he posted his comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    "Scrub-Zero" obviously spent little-to-no time thinking about this, because he limited the options of the concept to only what I listed in the initial post.
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    because everyone seems to only want to complain, rather than offer another solution, which is exactly what we have just seen from "Scrub-Zero".
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    Just as "Scrub-Zero's" motivation to write his post was to glorify himself and make himself seem more intelligent
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I believe people like "Scrub-Zero" are part of the problem that Valve is ignoring right now
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    As a final note, I would like to translate that sentence for those of you who didn't understand what he (Scrub-Zero) just said. He just said that he's smart, and you're dumb. You're so stupid and emotional, you would just accept anything. Scrub-Zero thinks you're too dumb to see what would work and what wouldn't. He's going to object to this paragraph, but that is exactly what he just implied by what he said, and if you guys aren't offended by this, you ought to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I'm not going to respond to much of what this guy(Me, Scrub-Zero) said because he spent more time in ridicule (ad hominem attack) than actually making valid points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    Do not take this the wrong way, I do my best to genuinely assist any proposed solution
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    I understand your good intent but I can only see it in the negative light and I will judge it accordingly, I apologize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    The goal is noble but the proposed means are flawed in my book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    I hope this response helps your cause (and) the developers as well
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub-Zero View Post
    I'm not interested in getting too into the details because, quite frankly, I have seen better proposed solutions but I will do my best to respond to any thought-out system with the sole purpose of helping the original poster.

    Sorry, dude.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I'm not going to respond to much of what this guy said because he spent more time in ridicule (ad hominem attack) than actually making valid points.
    I love the part where he doesn't ONCE ridicule you in any way, then you proceed to insult him because he disagreed with you and completely tore apart your flawed system. Well played Scrub-Zero, I agree with what you said and you did it in a professional matter unlike the the OP who attacks anyone who doesn't like his idea.

    PS your idea is terrible and very abusable kaine, try again, thanks.
    Last edited by Actionbastard; 07-03-2013 at 12:49 AM.

  6. #16
    I like the idea, although, as Scrub-Zero has pointed out, the way you proposed it would very likely just result in everybody commending everbody after each game. I think a possible way to prevent this is to only be able to commend ONE player of each team, similar to an MVP award. This way, you would commend e.g. the support who helped you so well during the laning phase, the guy who has been so helpful and friendly all game long etc. instead of mindlessly commending everyone. To prevent mates from constantly commending each other, I suggest you would only be able to commend your mate every 4 games you play with him (seeing that you have 4 team-mates, the amount of commendations would then statistically be the same as if you had played games solo). You would then neither be at an advantage nor at a disadvantage if you play with friends.

    PS: At no point did Scrub-Zero ridicule you or "call you names", he merely pointed out the flaws he sees in your system.

    @Scrub-Zero: You admitted that people would work together if this system was implemented, but for the wrong reasons. My question is: Why should we care? We are not trying to make this world a better place or to change people for the better, all we are trying to achieve is more enjoyable games with better cooperation and less flaming. If this systems can make this happen, I do not really care much about WHY people are working together.

  7. #17
    Basic Member Scrub-Zero's Avatar
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    @Popinjay.Poison

    I am not too concerned with the actual "reward" of an item. I myself suggested that items should be given out for completing the tutorial some time ago. I don't expect people to necessarily 'really care' about improving the quality of life as it may in DOTA 2. The current upset with the mute system is, in my opinion, more because of how easy it is to report persons rather than the actual punishment -- Though the punishment existing certainly contributes to people being more vocal about it. I sincerely believe the Reports should be scrapped all-together if they are as rampart as they are; but, that is a subject that is not allowed to have threads created for. If this system works and lowers the overall toxicity? Hell yeah, I am all for that!

    I can't help but be pessimistic of an entirely new system especially when one considers that the current one is a clusterfuck because it is a system that can easily be abused. I admit that this commendation system, from what I interpret on paper, would result in a positive reinforcement: a free item (as opposed to getting muted) -- but I simply just can't jump ship and say: "Yeah, sure, this would work." I don't think it would work too much to enforce bettering the truly toxic players (flamers, griefers, etc).

    This is a bit of a stretch, but, Team Fortress 2 is perhaps the best example. Let me preface this by saying toxicity wasn't the issue in that game as it is in DOTA 2. Bear with me.

    In TF2 they first introduced new weapons for the medic and the idea was they would tie it to achievements -- another new introduction for TF2 (I think.) Well, guess what I did? I went on an achievement server. What is an achievement server? It is exactly as it sounds but taken to the extreme: A server whose sole purpose was for people to "farm" the necessary achievements. The servers themselves had custom maps designed around getting the achievement as fast as possible. I went in, got my achievements pretty quickly and got my medic unlocks. The entire concept of "achieving" things was completely usurped and, honestly, I kinda felt a little bit guilty after seeing people legitimately unlock the achievement. By guilty I mean I did the same shit with the other classes really -- They were new weapons to a hardcore TF2 player. Now when I play the game, there is so much new shit I have no clue what the hell is going on!

    Again, the two situations are different, but, the important part is to understand the lengths that people will go to. We've seen the same thing with the current system: "Well Played!" spam/F2P's incredible testing/People throwing games/The influx of mute threads to the point of "General Feedback" being removed...then they add the community forum? Holy crap! The ability of players to unite is there but there isn't a solid medium, not yet.

    Another 'personal' solution of mine would be a tribunal pyramid-scheme. You start at the top with Valve. Valve employees each get two invites and they give them to whom they think can honestly represent a community-driven system whose purpose is to make the world of DOTA 2 a "better place" -- More importantly, though, people who understand the line between offender and just, an online gamer in a competitive environment. Those players then in turn get their own invites to send to other players -- However, set a time limit before allowing the next "tier" of players in. One to two weeks, something to ensure that the players that are currently 'in' do not abuse it. They can keep the report and commendation system but sever the ties to actual punishment. This would be a very time-consuming system, but, I think the end result would be worth it -- Though valve seems very much set on their current solution. I myself have had nothing but way better games too, so it's hard for me to argue but I do so because I'm just that cool.

  8. #18
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    Honestly anything would be better than the current system, I feel.But I think that OPs idea is the way to go.Muting people makes them even more angry especially when theres no reason and since the reports r not monitored almost everybody gets muted just cuz.

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