Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Communication Suggests from a Veteran DotA Player

  1. #1

    Communication Suggests from a Veteran DotA Player

    I made a post about this on the DotA 2 Steam forums, and I got a large amount of positive feedback and suggestions to post this idea here, so hopefully the Valve developers might see this.

    I understand Valve's well-reasoned goal to improve the atmosphere of the general DotA community, and I agree something should be done, but banning is a negative approach that I firmly believe is unnecessary. I guarantee if you take a POSITIVE approach to this problem, you will get much better results because banning people doesn't make them nicer and want to help each other and work together... it only creates more animosity.
    Please hear out my ideas:

    I think there has a been a departure from your initial idea of "commending" other players. It's a good start, but I think you guys stopped short in developing it. Interesting that I have watched some players try to be overly nice, giving, and helpful, and then plead with other players to commend them, just to increase their commendation stats. However, over the last year, I've watched the decline, and now no one really cares about commendations anymore. Why not? Because there's no incentive to care about them.

    What you need is player commendations to be focused on in more detail with incentives for each individual player to obtain a high rating of commendations from other players. There are TONS of new items coming into the game, and I personally enjoy seeing all the varieties, so think about this scenario for a moment:
    What if once every 3 months (each quarter) you offered a LIMITED EDITION item (i.e., it can only be achieved via commendations) to all players that achieve a required number of commendations during that 90-day period? You would see not only a rise in the amount of people trying to work together to get commendation points, but also an increase in overall game play hours online.

    I also propose changing the commendations slightly:
    *Friendly (add "forgiving" into friendly, because it falls into the same category)
    *Support (the glory is always given to the carries, and this would help encourage people to play good support roles)
    *Leadership
    *Teaching

    Only allow one commendation to be given out to each of the other 9 players in the game, and make it so that a player can only commend another player once during the 3-month period. (This prevents friends/clans from abusing the system -- the limitation can be reset each quarter.)
    On the profile, you can continue to list the TOTAL amount of commendations, but have a number above it that has a total number of commendations for the current quarter, so they can see how many commendations they need to achieve the special item reward.

    So now what you're doing, instead of banning people and creating resentment, you're REWARDING those who are being friendly and cooperative to one another, which will lighten the image of your company, and they will make much more effort on their own to try to help each other. Doesn't that make more sense? Positive reinforcement goes a long way.

    Also, another important note, you need to make it EASIER to commend other players. For example, at the end of the game, add in four small buttons next to each players name for commendations. They will only be able to select one of the four, for each player in the game, assuming they want to commend another player. I would advise adding in a small animation along side it to remind players at the end of the game to commend their teammates. (Often, most players forget about it at the end of a game, and an animated reminder will help them remember who was friendly, or who was a great support that game.)

    In the end, this is a self-sustaining system that Valve wouldn't even have to monitor, like they're doing on bans! It's a win-win situation.

    One person on the Steam forums brought up a point about players abusing the system by "trading commendations," but I need to remind everyone that once you put a limit cap of one commendation to each unique player per quarter... there IS NO ABUSING THE SYSTEM. That's what makes this great. The goal is not to try and monitor who gets the unique item and who doesn't... the goal is to get the community to try and be more friendly to each other.
    For example, let's say person A was mean to person B throughout the game. Person A proposes "trading" with person B. Person B already resents person A, so either B will refuse to trade with A, or B will tell A he will trade with him, but then not do it, which leaves B with the commendation he deserves, and A is left with nothing. The system monitors itself.

    As of right now, we have numerous complaints from a lot of players I talk to that say this muting system is being abused, and I have to agree. I've been reported for things, like when a person picks bs after we already have pa AND razor... and I tell him that's a foolish pick because we already have two hard carries. The muting system ends up being broken because children who play this game will throw tantrums because they don't like to be told they did something wrong, and they jeer because they can abuse the system, and for veteran players like me, it ruins everything to point that I have considered resigning DotA 2.
    But I have known Valve to be very community-orientated, and I wanted to propose this concept and see what they decide to do. Again, I got a great deal of positive feedback on this system I'm proposing (again, I did not receive one negative comment on the Steam forums; all players really liked this idea), and there are numerous ways this could be implemented, and I would even be willing to help write up a few systems concepts for Valve if they wanted me to do so; then you could pick what you like and alter it how you need to.

    I hope someone from the development team will read this and consider these ideas. The negative banning for communication is only going to create more angry players, and it will drive people away. A positive reward system for communication is only going to encourage players to change their attitudes, and will help develop the community into what you envision it to be. It concentrates attention on rewarding those who are doing good, rather than focusing time and attention to try and punish those who may or may not have been ill-mannered.

    My name is Kaine on Steam. STEAM_0:0:17864250 I hope Valve sees this.
    Last edited by kainestolkyn; 07-01-2013 at 10:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    264
    The problem with positive feedback is that you have to be able to reward people for doing the right thing, which can only be done by monitoring them. You have two sides to which you can swing - either you try to reward the majority of people for being relatively good, which, aside from being expensive to Valve, will also mean that people tend to start trading commendations if the system is that open and free, or you can try to reward a minority of people for being extremely good, in which case the majority of the community is going to quickly forget about the commendation system because they're getting nothing from it. How do you decide where you want to stand? Because as soon as more than a small number of people are able to get an item, it becomes, as I said, expensive for Valve to continue supplying so many items, but it also means that people realise it can't be that hard to get items, and therefore more people start trying to, and managing to trick the system.

    To begin with, the system can easily be abused. What limit would you set on the number of necessary commendations? I could easily get at least 10 per quarter by finding the time to play with the right friends and trading commendations with them (1 match per person I want to trade commends with). So then how many commendations would you need to get an item? 20? 30? 50? 100? That doesn't reward people for good behaviour, that just rewards people who play a lot. So then make it 0.5 commendations per match played? Still doesn't fix the issue, I could get a smurf account, play 1 match, get 1 commendation, and get myself an item. Set thresholds on the minimum number of games played and minimum number of commendations received? Then that just rewards people who have the largest active number of friends. You can't address all of these and other issues at once without making the system so convoluted it's pointless even trying to put it in.

    If bans are being abused because they're not moderated by Valve, you can bet this will be abused because it's not moderated either. The difference being that while a report system doesn't cost Valve anything, a reward system does. Positive feedback alone won't change the community; we shouldn't be trying to engender good behaviour, we should have good behaviour because it's the way we enjoy playing the game. Unfortunately that's an issue that goes far beyond any single community, which is why there's no point in even trying to change the DotA 2 community that way; better to just remove the people that are the root of it. Any time a group of strangers comes together with a common goal but with their own self interest, there's bound to be 1 or 2 of them who abuse all the rest to make themselves feel better. No-one tries to rehabilitate those people - they get rid of them because they aren't contributing to that group. Honestly I would love to see a good positive feedback system, but such a thing doesn't exist in a game such as DotA 2, where the only income stream is from selling cosmetics.

  3. #3
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    82
    I totally agree, and to the person above me, he said that you won't be able to commend the same person twice in a quarter! if you want to abuse it 4 times then go ahead, not even considered abuse. I think this is a great idea and they should work on it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by boody View Post
    I totally agree, and to the person above me, he said that you won't be able to commend the same person twice in a quarter! if you want to abuse it 4 times then go ahead, not even considered abuse. I think this is a great idea and they should work on it.
    I read over the person's concerns above you, and you're right, I addressed his concerns in the original post with the section on limitations. I think he read it, but he didn't comprehend it. It sounds like he was quick to write a complaint, rather than analyze the information. The first two sentences you wrote refuted his entire post.
    Thank you for your support of this idea. I agree with you, I hope they will work on this.

  5. #5
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I read over the person's concerns above you, and you're right, I addressed his concerns in the original post with the section on limitations. I think he read it, but he didn't comprehend it. It sounds like he was quick to write a complaint, rather than analyze the information. The first two sentences you wrote refuted his entire post.
    Thank you for your support of this idea. I agree with you, I hope they will work on this.
    Nice to see you both read my post thoroughly. I did NOT say that you could commend the same person twice in a quarter, I fully understood everything you posted, what I said was that if you're a player that has, say, 100 friends who play DotA 2, then you can get each of them to play with you at some point, and trade commends, and even though you've all only given each unique person 1 commend, you all now have 100 commends. As I said quite clearly, this system would merely reward the players with the largest friend lists, without necessarily engendering any good behaviour.

  6. #6
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,334
    Quote Originally Posted by CamelLord View Post
    Nice to see you both read my post thoroughly. I did NOT say that you could commend the same person twice in a quarter, I fully understood everything you posted, what I said was that if you're a player that has, say, 100 friends who play DotA 2, then you can get each of them to play with you at some point, and trade commends, and even though you've all only given each unique person 1 commend, you all now have 100 commends. As I said quite clearly, this system would merely reward the players with the largest friend lists, without necessarily engendering any good behaviour.
    You cant commend friends or past-friends or if you become friends, past commends are removed.

    You can not commend until you have played 10 mm games.
    You can not commend someone outside of game.
    etc.
    etc.

  7. #7
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,334
    There are so many things you can do to prevent abuse. For starters, just replace report with commends in current report system. You only get a commend (current mute ban) if you get commended (current com report) x number of times (in y number of games) during z duration.

    +1 to op

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    79
    Brilliant idea.

    It has been proven in hundreds of social experiments that positive reinforcement is far superior to punishment to modify behavior.
    Unfortunately Valve is stuck in this route.
    This is probably because their corporate culture functions pretty much the same as the mute system.

    Lucky for us, in the modern age where companies ignore their clients their death is guaranteed.

  9. #9
    Basic Member Scrub-Zero's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    143
    Do not take this the wrong way, I do my best to genuinely assist any proposed solution-- but I think the solution you have posed is ill-fit for the current state of the game. I am not saying the current mute system is perfect either. If I had to choose between the two I would favor the mute system over your proposed one.

    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I made a post about this on the DotA 2 Steam forums, and I got a large amount of positive feedback and suggestions to post this idea here, so hopefully the Valve developers might see this.
    We are literally at the point that any 'sensible' or wordy suggestion is going to get a humongous positive response simply because it is not the current system. People hate this system, they would support anything so long as the current mute system gets abolished. That being said, I am not trying to be completely dismissive but simply pointing out that people will swing that way with their personal opinions, which they have every right to. Valve cannot be quick to jump the gun on a solution -- They are already changing up the algorithms for the current mute-system, whatever the hell that means.


    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    I think there has a been a departure from your initial idea of "commending" other players. It's a good start, but I think you guys stopped short in developing it. Interesting that I have watched some players try to be overly nice, giving, and helpful, and then plead with other players to commend them, just to increase their commendation stats. However, over the last year, I've watched the decline, and now no one really cares about commendations anymore. Why not? Because there's no incentive to care about them.
    I disagree with this. I do not think Valve stopped short of developing it as much as they did stop short of another disaster. I can not track who or what I got commended for and by whom unless I literally check after every game but I know for sure that people simply threw out commends to other players for being good at the game or for racking up a very one-sided victory. This is wrong. Completely overrunning your opponents due to a considerable skill gap does not translate to everyone on your team having qualities such as: "Forgiveness, Friendly, Leading, or Teaching." Here is what I noticed from commends every single time we win or the enemy team really wins.

    "Commend plz" What? Fuck that. People are lobbying for commends(That are undeserved, mind you) now, what is going to happen when we throw in incentive? It will be abused, simply put. I understand the proposed "limitations" but the instant it becomes widespread word that: "Getting so many commends = special item." You are going to have a shitstorm on your hands. Commends will just be an obvious thing to do after any match, really. Especially if you change up the hud to make it easier. I commend you, you commend me. Doesn't matter that we are strangers and that neither of us really said anything all game. We both understand how the system rewards based upon a number of commends so, why not?



    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    What you need is player commendations to be focused on in more detail with incentives for each individual player to obtain a high rating of commendations from other players. There are TONS of new items coming into the game, and I personally enjoy seeing all the varieties, so think about this scenario for a moment:
    What if once every 3 months (each quarter) you offered a LIMITED EDITION item (i.e., it can only be achieved via commendations) to all players that achieve a required number of commendations during that 90-day period? You would see not only a rise in the amount of people trying to work together to get commendation points, but also an increase in overall game play hours online.
    I mean, you really sell it yourself here.

    "What you need is player commendations to be focused on in more detail with incentives for each individual player to obtain a high rating of commendations from other players. "
    "You would see not only a rise in the amount of people trying to work together to get commendation points, but also an increase in overall game play hours online."

    Yes, exactly. There would be no down-side to commending anyone you could for whatever reason because as long as you are getting commends and so are they, you are both getting "rewarded" regardless of your actual behavior/efforts. So yes, people would "work together" to get commendations and such but for all the wrong reasons. Would people play more? I suppose so, is it worth derailing the community? I think not.




    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    Only allow one commendation to be given out to each of the other 9 players in the game, and make it so that a player can only commend another player once during the 3-month period. (This prevents friends/clans from abusing the system -- the limitation can be reset each quarter.)
    On the profile, you can continue to list the TOTAL amount of commendations, but have a number above it that has a total number of commendations for the current quarter, so they can see how many commendations they need to achieve the special item reward.
    This is ridiculous. I understand your good intent but I can only see it in the negative light and I will judge it accordingly, I apologize. "Only allow one commendation to each of the other 9 players" or..."Just fucking commend everyone in every single game you play cause we get items for it." Listing the "commendations" needed is just as ridiculous. You should not keep score of something that should be preserved and respected like commendations in this regard. You are literally proposing a carrot-on-the-stick approach with Commendations, how the hell do you think people are going to respond to that? The main HUD featuring a countdown of how many "Commends you gotta score!" to get that special item? People are gonna lobby for commends! It would be great if they indeed truly tried to be better players but it's been done before in the past of people simply throwing out commends willy-nilly and that was back when they were "useless." People are begging for commends now, I still see it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    So now what you're doing, instead of banning people and creating resentment, you're REWARDING those who are being friendly and cooperative to one another, which will lighten the image of your company, and they will make much more effort on their own to try to help each other. Doesn't that make more sense? Positive reinforcement goes a long way.
    This is very assuming that the best qualities of the community shines through just like my post assumes the worst. I'm not going to fault you necessarily, even though I disagree completely, because I am currently doing the exact same thing but for the opposite "side." The worst case scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    Also, another important note, you need to make it EASIER to commend other players. For example, at the end of the game, add in four small buttons next to each players name for commendations. They will only be able to select one of the four, for each player in the game, assuming they want to commend another player. I would advise adding in a small animation along side it to remind players at the end of the game to commend their teammates. (Often, most players forget about it at the end of a game, and an animated reminder will help them remember who was friendly, or who was a great support that game.)
    I understand my post is pretty much hammering down the nail at this point but, again; When you make the commendation distribution easier and even throw in changes to the hud itself and a scoreboard...you are encouraging a system to be abused. Reminding people to commend? Come on, really? I don't need to touch this bit any more.



    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    One person on the Steam forums brought up a point about players abusing the system by "trading commendations," but I need to remind everyone that once you put a limit cap of one commendation to each unique player per quarter... there IS NO ABUSING THE SYSTEM. That's what makes this great. The goal is not to try and monitor who gets the unique item and who doesn't... the goal is to get the community to try and be more friendly to each other.
    For example, let's say person A was mean to person B throughout the game. Person A proposes "trading" with person B. Person B already resents person A, so either B will refuse to trade with A, or B will tell A he will trade with him, but then not do it, which leaves B with the commendation he deserves, and A is left with nothing. The system monitors itself.
    The goal is noble but the proposed means are flawed in my book. I assume when you say "Limit cap of one commendation to each unique player..." I assume you mean I can't commend the same person twice. Fair enough. That does absolutely nothing in the solo to low-party queue, however. When word goes around that you should simply commend eachother stranger-to-stranger, unique-player to unique-player then it pretty much is thrown out the window entirely. By the way, that "word of mouth" spreads pretty fast when the hud itself, and in-game messages are encouraging you to do so. Is that what we truly want? I say no.

    Quote Originally Posted by kainestolkyn View Post
    As of right now, we have numerous complaints from a lot of players I talk to that say this muting system is being abused, and I have to agree. I've been reported for things, like when a person picks bs after we already have pa AND razor... and I tell him that's a foolish pick because we already have two hard carries. The muting system ends up being broken because children who play this game will throw tantrums because they don't like to be told they did something wrong, and they jeer because they can abuse the system, and for veteran players like me, it ruins everything to point that I have considered resigning DotA 2.
    But I have known Valve to be very community-orientated, and I wanted to propose this concept and see what they decide to do. Again, I got a great deal of positive feedback on this system I'm proposing (again, I did not receive one negative comment on the Steam forums; all players really liked this idea), and there are numerous ways this could be implemented, and I would even be willing to help write up a few systems concepts for Valve if they wanted me to do so; then you could pick what you like and alter it how you need to.
    Yes, the mute system is being abused so long as whether or not you are muted is directly related to reports -- provided it is still automated (Which I assume it is due to the size of the game.) Know what else got abused back in the hay-day? Commendations. It did not shine through as much because there was nothing "Good" about it. You just had it in your profile, it became more of a personal stat. Any automated system wherein the input is the mass of players is prone to abuse in nature. The community has proven it is incapable of handling themselves or the decisions with valve. It is one thing to disagree but when the "General Feedback" became "Tales from the Crypt: Mute edition" -- Well, you pretty much got the worst of the worst. Valve stamped their foot and cleaned up the forums and the very first thing on the same day as the changes the general response from a good amount of threads is: "Valve is backtracking"/"Guess we migrate all these mute threads to Misc, huh?" I understand people obviously having distaste for the system but that is not how progress is made unless you are REALLY cutting into their profits. Good luck with that, I think we tried the same thing with l4d2 and that didn't work out so well.




    The above response does not even touch on what I believe to be the most critical flaw in your proposed solution: The purpose of reports. They could take away the mute system (A system which I believe they "Back-up" based upon their blog posts) but what do you do for reports? Send 'em to LPQ again? LPQ was shitty but, as long as you were getting games it didn't really matter -- Most of the time you were just grouped up with other douchebags and from the few times I've been there (From queuing with "toxic" friends) it just...didn't do much? It was like willingly queuing up for a terrible experience and everyone there was vocal and hated it. I'm really not surprised at the reasoning for a mute system after seeing that for myself but I do not know the timeline of events cause I took a bit of a hiatus with DOTA 2. I look at your solution and simply see us swapping knives.

    I hope this response helps your cause the developers as well, provided they read this stuff. You may count this as an opposed response, as that is what it is. I'm not interested in getting too into the details because, quite frankly, I have seen better proposed solutions but I will do my best to respond to any thought-out system with the sole purpose of helping the original poster.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CvP View Post
    There are so many things you can do to prevent abuse. For starters, just replace report with commends in current report system. You only get a commend (current mute ban) if you get commended (current com report) x number of times (in y number of games) during z duration.

    +1 to op
    That's exactly what I was thinking when I read his response. I just wanted to see what other people said first before I responded, but I don't need to respond now. You just refuted everything he said.
    Well said, and very good ideas for abuse prevention. Thanks for your continued support.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •