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Thread: feedback on matchmaking after the lastest patch

  1. #21
    Basic Member nadaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletcher View Post
    >246581071

    Congrats! You don't have a crappy Elo, and can feel free to keep playing Dota! Your Elo was right in the middle in this game.

    You were on the Dire. The Dire had a 2-stack that had an Elo spread of 1000 points. The guy with 150 wins was the bottom half of that party, and the other "noob" with "only" 298 wins was the player in this match with the highest Elo. We paired them against a corresponding party with an Elo spread that was approximately the same on the Radiant.

    In summary, it is true that you were matched with a player with an Elo lower than yours, because he was in a party with an average Elo approximately equal to yours. This means that you were also matched with a skilled teammate to compensate for the lower skilled player on your team. (But you didn't know that, because win count is the only metric you have to evaluate the skill of the players in your game, and win count is really not useful past a certain number of wins.) Furthermore, the match was fair because team you played against had a very similar situation. Comparing player-by-player, the teams were balanced, and the match was just about as good as could be formed based on Elo, given the fact that we allow parties to be made with players with differing skill level. Parties CAN cause players with differing skill to be put into the same game. There is no way around that, however, in most cases the matchmaker now does a significantly better job of matching up parties to make equitable teams than it did before.

    If you want to avoid this situation and not matched with parties, try the solo queue. We've solved several problems that were causing long wait times and low quality matches. (We should have mentioned that in the patch notes.)
    First thanks for posting and i am personally amazed that you said we already have elo.

    Is this the recent patch or we had it for some time now with bugs ?

    Any plans to make the real rating visible ?

    Perhaps even share the matchmaking algorithm with the community, so they know whats going on ?

    As i see it keeping people in the dark by not telling them how they are rated and whats their rating is only makes them more frustrated nor they have a clear sign of progress, and also slows down the improvement the rating system because surely you would not want to find all your bugs or oversights alone if you can have bunch of people who do it for you for free.
    Last edited by nadaga; 07-18-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletcher View Post
    >246581071

    Congrats! You don't have a crappy Elo, and can feel free to keep playing Dota! Your Elo was right in the middle in this game.

    You were on the Dire. The Dire had a 2-stack that had an Elo spread of 1000 points. The guy with 150 wins was the bottom half of that party, and the other "noob" with "only" 298 wins was the player in this match with the highest Elo. We paired them against a corresponding party with an Elo spread that was approximately the same on the Radiant.

    In summary, it is true that you were matched with a player with an Elo lower than yours, because he was in a party with an average Elo approximately equal to yours. This means that you were also matched with a skilled teammate to compensate for the lower skilled player on your team. (But you didn't know that, because win count is the only metric you have to evaluate the skill of the players in your game, and win count is really not useful past a certain number of wins.) Furthermore, the match was fair because team you played against had a very similar situation. Comparing player-by-player, the teams were balanced, and the match was just about as good as could be formed based on Elo, given the fact that we allow parties to be made with players with differing skill level. Parties CAN cause players with differing skill to be put into the same game. There is no way around that, however, in most cases the matchmaker now does a significantly better job of matching up parties to make equitable teams than it did before.

    If you want to avoid this situation and not matched with parties, try the solo queue. We've solved several problems that were causing long wait times and low quality matches. (We should have mentioned that in the patch notes.)
    Thx for post. But we need a visible rating. Even to make a pick. If i see that someone has a bigger rating and that guy want to play carry, i am happy to support him. And i gonna pick carry/mid/solo hard if my elo is bigger etc.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadaga View Post
    First thanks for posting and i am personally amazed that you said we already have elo.

    Is this the recent patch or we had it for some time now with bugs ?

    Any plans to make the real rating visible ?

    Perhaps even share the matchmaking algorithm with the community, so they whats going on ?

    As i see it keeping people in the dark by not telling them how they are rated and whats their rating is only makes them more frustrated nor they have a clear sign of progress, and also slows down the improvement the rating system because surely you would not want to find all your bugs or oversights alone if you can have bunch of people who do it for you for free.
    There's been hidden ratings/elo/whatever you wanna call it for ages. I don't know the exact time it was added, but I'm pretty sure it's been around in some way, shape or form for at least 2 years, in other words when the beta truly started for the general public.

    Don't count on real ratings being made visible, Valve purposely hides them to prevent people from flaming based on rating, similar to how there is no KDA ratio like there is in other Dota clones. All that statistics do is cause people to act like dicks to people with statistics they don't fancy, often being unjustified.
    Last edited by Arxos; 07-18-2013 at 08:20 PM.

  4. #24
    Basic Member func_door's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zepp View Post
    And i gonna pick carry/mid/solo hard if my elo is bigger etc.
    this is literally why we don't have visible mmr/elo

  5. #25
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    u all missing the point, that elo is broken. or how esle u gonna explain that i always had as my teammates 700-1000 wins person WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY DOTA, but now i always have 100-300 wins noobs, who dont know shit. i am able to recognize a good player even when he is having a bad game, and i am totally able to recognize a noob even when he ownes.
    Last edited by SlayerS; 07-18-2013 at 09:25 PM.

  6. #26
    Basic Member nadaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arxos View Post
    There's been hidden ratings/elo/whatever you wanna call it for ages. I don't know the exact time it was added, but I'm pretty sure it's been around in some way, shape or form for at least 2 years, in other words when the beta truly started for the general public.

    Don't count on real ratings being made visible, Valve purposely hides them to prevent people from flaming based on rating, similar to how there is no KDA ratio like there is in other Dota clones. All that statistics do is cause people to act like dicks to people with statistics they don't fancy, often being unjustified.
    People don't need justification, if they don't know the rating they will always feel right, they won't need proof that they are right but they might accept proof that they are wrong, showing them only wins doesn't fix anything either, but IF you show them the rating of every player always, waiting screen, hero pick screen and constantly up ingame, then instead of getting mad at the weakest member in the team for losing mid badly, they already knew it right away which rated player picks who and give lower rated members lower pressure jobs, because it will matter if enemy 1500 elo rated qop fights a 1600 player or a 1400 one, and in jungle for example creeps won't care about your last hitting or lane playing skills. He will also see that enemy has weak links too, so he won't feel punished, and since he had the chance account for all this he may accept it fully, even if low rated member fails his job because everybody fails in his job once in a while, on the other side lower rated members may accept leadership more easily from higher rated ones.

    If you add a new player in an average-high team, not like it's going to remain a secret, even if you can't check his profile, and probably you are going to be more frustrated when you find out and he gets you killed, sure you may enjoy that crucial short time until he is found out when you could have affected his pick or position, but once he is out which could happen as early as his pick but rarely longer than few minutes, he is going to a lot worse time then he would have had if people knew from the start, and i am not only talking about raging which you can mute, i also refer to not trusting that teammate at all or trying to save him or even totally ignoring him for the rest of the match, instead of playing with him conservatively from the start.

    What do you prefer the truth, or lies ?

  7. #27
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    Yes, we use a Elo-type system. We have data that shows that it correlates well with a number of quality metrics.

    Showing players their Elo has proven to cause a lot of unwanted behaviour. (The same problems exist in Chess.)

    We know that there really is value in knowing how the match was formed, and even in knowing which players were the best, and also who was partied up with whom. It helps to analyze your own skill and try to understand how to get better. We are actively working to try to figure out what data we CAN provide to players (perhaps after the match) to help them do this analysis, without causing too many of the undesirable effects I mentioned. Right now, if there's a steamroll, people look at the only data available to them, which is totally understandable. Also, I believe that there have been problems in the past where it was not doing a good enough job segregating truly inexperienced players from experienced players. We've improved on that. However, our definition of "new player" probably doesn't match exactly with many players. (Their definition is often: "the other guy has fewer wins that I do.") And we have to deal with smurfs and players coming in from other games in the genre, where win count is definitely totally unrelated to the skill level of the player.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadaga View Post
    makes them more frustrated nor they have a clear sign of progress
    Just one last comment on this. Elo is a TERRIBLE way to give players a sense of "progress." Many (most?) people reach a plateau, and their Elo stabilizes. It is simply not mathematically possible for Elo to keep increasing in general for players indefinitely as more and more games are played.

    Given this reality, if players used Elo to measure "progress", we would constantly be reminding them that they are NOT making any. That would be really bad.

  9. #29
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    Are you saying that one's skill stop progressing after certain point or that Elo can't measure it anymore?

  10. #30
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    dude, u rly need some ppl in ur developer team who actually played games in competitive lvl. like former pro players or something like that. cuz u have no idea what are u talking about, no offense. u cant play games with no progress. if u can - game is rly bad and dont require a skill in the first place. dota is not one of them. it requires skill. only way to improve ur skill (skill levels are infinite, even most of the current proplayers has potential to be better) is to play more games. more games = more experience = better skill. its basics u know.
    Last edited by SlayerS; 07-18-2013 at 10:28 PM.

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