View Poll Results: Should MMR be made visible in one way or another?

Voters
2694. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it should. It could be MMR itself, percentile or "brackets".

    2,206 81.89%
  • No, it shouldn't. I don't want to know my MMR.

    488 18.11%
Page 1 of 171 1 2 3 11 51 101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 1707

Thread: Do players want to see their MatchMaking Rating? Please come in and vote.

  1. #1
    Basic Member soprof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,231

    Do players want to see their MatchMaking Rating? Please come in and vote.

    Good day Sirs,

    I would like You to vote whether You personally would like to see Your MatchMaking Rating(MMR) and, maybe, mmr of other players in Your team.


    DISCLAIMER: The voting is NOT anonymous. This way it can be proven that the results are more or less legitimate, not boosted by fake accounts or anything along these lines.


    To mods: Yes I know this topic has been already discussed, I want to get an updated spectrum of opinions and also I would like to combine all the possible solutions and opinions in this post. At least, please inform me prior to closing the thread.

    A little bit of general information on the topic, not directly related to the poll (feel free to correct me if you know something better than I do):
    MatchMaking in Dota2 uses an ELO-like system to match you and thus your kills/deaths/assists, winrate, number of games, account level, date of registration and others have no direct correlation with the way you get ranked and matched. The only thing what matters for the system is the rating you and your party members had when you clicked the "search" button.
    Moving on: you MMR changes according to the result of the concrete game with and versus certain players with a defined MMR. If you win games - you gain some ranking, if you lose games - you lose ranking. In "traditional" ELO if a higher rated player(s) win the game - they gain fewer points, and if lower ranked player(s) win the game - they gain more points. This makes sense if you think about it and has proven to be efficient in many ways, and it works for teamgames as well.
    One more thing to point out is that the value of the rating itself has no real meaning: only the delta(difference) of the MMR's between the players, or some kind of a derivative from the MMR - let's say percentile is important.
    Does the MMR of the player depend on the ingame skill level? Most definitely yes.

    So, now we all understand why this MMR is important, let's get to the point. In most rated games, which by the way use ELO-like systems as well, you get some kind of feedback about your current MMR or positioning in the rating(percentile). It can be the rating itself, some kind of brackets, leagues or any other kind of differently shaped constructions. Anyway all of them are just a cover, the system itself keeps operating with just the ELO MMR itself and its derivatives. Speaking about dota, there were dozens of successful dota1 leagues which didn't bother displaying your rating right away. I played hundreds of hours in different ones and it was generally a better gaming experience than playing in the ones without some kind of a feedback from the MMR system. Furthermore, players with the lowest MMR in the team or game have been detected to try their best in order to win the game, and winning higher rated opponents was a really good feeling. Same happened in sc2, which displayed advantage or disadvantage of you or your team at the loading screen, thus boosting your motivation or confidence.(This is just an example, not suggesting this, vote was nothing to do with this one as well.)

    As far as I understand from what happened to dotabuff rating, which was a more or less an accurate imitation of the actual MMR, someone at Valve thinks that displaying player's rating in any way has more drawbacks than benefits. This topic is created in order to provide a better picture of the subject and collect some information regarding the will of the people who actually play Dota2.

    I'll just list cons and pros for displaying player's MMR or its derivative, please post below if you want me to add something here.

    pros:
    + Players will get some feedback regarding their current position in the rating;
    + No more :cry:cry: threads about "a guy with 19 wins in my team";
    + Players will get more motivated to actually win games and boost own skill, and not to create lots of smurf accounts or do any other kinds of abuses to boost winratesor player levels.
    + No more "-You suck! -No, You suck!" dialogues inside the game: everything is clear right away, time to actually play the game and try to win;
    + A convenient way to briefly explain/share at what level you're actually playing;
    + Percentile would be the best way to detect that you're progressing in comparison to other players. Dota is no-way something static, it has lots of PvP planes. Only progress compared to other players is important.
    + Adds management element to the games. At least at high MMR's.
    + (NEW)
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
    ...all we are asking is that the public MM Rating becomes publicly visible so that later on we can make suggestions to improve the MM...
    cons:
    - New players will feel... new
    - Players with the lowest MMR in the team and in the game will feel some pressure. On the other hand, it's kind of a good thing - it really helps to concentrate and improve your game;
    - Many players will lose their "I AM THE GOD OF DOTA" feeling due to understanding that lots of players are actually more skilled than them - and thus will become more focused on game and, i guess, mannered.
    - Due to the nature of the ELO-like rating, it doesn't really grow by just playing the game itself. Actually, after a certain amount of games it literally stops growing and thus creates a feeling of stagnation. This happens because players misunderstand what MMR actually means. Pretty sure they'll get used to it pretty fast;
    - As one of my HoN friends said: "as soon as the lower MM people tried to do anything other than support - instant raging".
    -
    Quote Originally Posted by zaersx
    This would mean that people would go into queue to play to win, which means that if there's someone on the team that is speaking some sense, they'll listen to him, due to an effect described as a negative of Ranked MM, the 'Ladder Anxiety' which supposedly makes people not want to play, as losing would result in public shaming due to loss of rank, but this could be an amazing incentive for all the people that just don't care if you're speaking sense to start to, because they'd be afraid of losing, they would stop thinking selfishly and last pick Void for hard lane, or stop 4 man midding if someone tells them that it's bad and why it is so, instead of saying 'Reported faggit noob'.
    - (NEW)
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldK View Post
    Would you listen to someone's idea if his MMR is lower than yours even if his proposed idea makes sense but doesn't fit to your liking? I don't think so. Would you blame your team mate with the lowest MMR as the one who made you lost the game instead of admitting to yourself you made some mistake? Most likely you will.
    Thank You for reading, don't forget to vote! Good luck at DoTA!




    Appendix:
    Possible options:
    I. Visible only to yourself. Just like only you see number of games you lost.
    II. Visible only to yourself. Can be made friends_only or public via options. Just like it is possible to make game history public.
    III. Visible to your team. Would help to assign roles.
    IV. Visible to your team, but after the game. Would help people to evaluate what and why went wrong.
    V. Visible to all the players in the game. This way you'll understand who's dangerous out there. Also you'll understand whether you're favored or not.
    VI. Visible to everyone and anytime. Kind of the harsh option. The one I want =D


    Related links:
    http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=70618 (General Matchmaking Feedback Thread - all the dev posts and lots of opinions on matchmaking in general)
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=195273
    http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/ and http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/...l/details.aspx
    http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/201...-stats-part-3/
    http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/201...-stats-part-1/
    (NEW) GabeN himself treated the question of MMR visibility as a matter of when, not whether (suggested by eric-the-red)


    Good example of an MM system with open ratings:
    http://www.risknextgen.com/handler.p...:stats&id=8735 The game type for this is FFA, thus revealing mmr must be disaster, according to the ones who are against the reveal. But, in reality, it made a very competative environment where players make real decisions in game. The MMR of the players becames an important decising factor. The game accumulates players totally different by skill level and the players themselfs balance it out. Ingame. In real time. Sounds like fantazy for You?
    HoN ladder: http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/ladder/



    final notes:
    Despite this post being slightly one-sided and "loaded" I am nevertheless ready for a more detailed discussion with proper reasoning, if someone is interested in that one
    Last edited by soprof; 12-05-2013 at 06:29 AM.
    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
    -Thomas Reid


  2. #2
    Basic Member soprof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,231
    Here's what ValveDev said about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fletcher View Post
    Showing players their Elo has proven to cause a lot of unwanted behaviour. (The same problems exist in Chess.)

    We know that there really is value in knowing how the match was formed, and even in knowing which players were the best, and also who was partied up with whom. It helps to analyze your own skill and try to understand how to get better. We are actively working to try to figure out what data we CAN provide to players (perhaps after the match) to help them do this analysis, without causing too many of the undesirable effects I mentioned.

    One more dev post:
    http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post663957
    Last edited by soprof; 10-31-2013 at 11:44 PM.
    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
    -Thomas Reid


  3. #3
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    51
    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

    I have almost 52% winrate and yet i am still bumped into normal bracket, but high bracket most of the time. I want to know whether or not im improving ,whether or not i won an easy match or a fucking hard one.

    We need to know. It really hinders the game for a lot of competitive ppl atm.

  4. #4
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    39
    Make it private, that way no one has any basis to be mad on.

    What you think someone will ask you to screenshot your rating mid game? Yeah, that's why you don't want people seeing your MMR.

  5. #5
    Basic Member Bleako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Legendary skill bracket
    Posts
    2,280
    Don't underestimate people's ability to shift blame on others even when faced with overwhelming evidence of their own mistakes. Even if someone thinks they're pro-doto-master-diamond-level and end up having a low MMR, they'll blame their low MMR on noobs ruining it for them (see: League of Legends' "Elo hell" theory)

    Edit: Also, you have to remember that if they display the MMR, people won't just blame noobs for their losses like they currently do - they'll start hating other players whenever their MMR drops, which in turn would make people even less forgiving of player mistakes. Showing it won't make people less mad, quite the contrary.

    Edit 2: Also, showing MMR would give people a false sense of hierarchy and power over others. The highest MMR in a game would feel like they are the ones that will carry the game and therefore would play more selfishly, while the lowest MMR would be treated like an unskilled player that needs to be looked after so that he doesn't drag the team down. You can't really say this wouldn't happen, people IRL always treat other people differently based on hierarchy.
    Last edited by Bleako; 07-19-2013 at 08:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Basic Member soprof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,231
    Quote Originally Posted by Bleako View Post
    Don't underestimate people's ability to blame others even when faced with overwhelming evidence of their mistakes. Even if someone thinks they're pro-doto-master-diamond-level and end up having a low MMR, they'll blame their low MMR on noobs ruining it for them (see: League of Legends' "Elo hell" theory)
    Yeh, I understand that. But I think it becames a little bit easier to "look from aside" if you have more or less of a hard evidence.
    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
    -Thomas Reid


  7. #7
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    217
    Everyone wants to know where they stand against the rest of the world.

  8. #8
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    520
    No I dont.

    It is useless if the majority of your games is you playing solo, since this game is 90% about team-work. It only makes sense for team-matchmaking, which is already ranked I think. Dont know since I dont play it. Player rankings are absolutely useless and are good only to match you with SIMILARLY skilled players, while the team-work is what makes the difference.

  9. #9
    Basic Member soprof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,231
    Quote Originally Posted by puTTy View Post
    No I dont.

    It is useless if the majority of your games is you playing solo, since this game is 90% about team-work. It only makes sense for team-matchmaking, which is already ranked I think. Dont know since I dont play it. Player rankings are absolutely useless and are good only to match you with SIMILARLY skilled players, while the team-work is what makes the difference.
    Valid points, but certain teamwork skills can and should be improved as well, even if you quote with random people. Like pinging the guy 2-3 secs before you come in vision to gank him.

    Furthermore, the solo matchmaking IS ranked, whether you like it or not. You just don't see it. I don't know about others, but I don't exactly enjoy my standing being hidden from me. Sounds... Corruptive.
    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
    -Thomas Reid


  10. #10
    Basic Member Racerkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Bleako View Post
    Also, showing MMR would give people a false sense of hierarchy and power over others. The highest MMR in a game would feel like they are the ones that will carry the game and therefore take more selfish decisions, while the lowest MMR will be treated like an unskilled player that needs to be looked after so he doesn't drag the team down. You can't really say this wouldn't happen, people IRL always treat people differently based on hierarchy.
    I remembered this
    "With great power comes great responsbility"
    Ofc he has to take the responsbility because MM has already made this guy responsible for the win or loss, every decision he takes matters..but responsility also means
    For a good player
    1) Telling the lowest lvl on ur team to cheer up..take it easy
    2) Telling them to not fight among themselves and concentrate n be ready for the next team fight
    3) Leading the team by pre-fixing Please to every request like wards, courier n so on
    this above scenario leads to victory in 80% of cases.

    But you can also be a **tch and
    1)Be a dictator -> You are lowest lvl in the team PICK SUPPORT
    2)Report this noob for game ruining
    this above scenario leads to losing in 100% of cases.

    So Bleako, there are both pros n cons to this man, it really depends on the individual to call it and be a man to the situation. By being a man i mean be a Good leader (scenario 1) ...but displaying ELO does help.. helps me know how good my lane partner is and to change my game style accordingly..

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •