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Thread: Will the shop ever get more organized?!

  1. #11
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    Maybe there could be a "Simple" and an "Advanced" option to choose in the shop, Simpel will make it what the current shop looks like while Advanced will make the store bigger with addition of other things. Or maybe it is the other way around.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigleet View Post
    Yes i know, but the layout can't get much better without increasing the size, unless you want to scroll through lots of pages
    Not really, the size can stay the same, the layout can always change. There's nothing preventing the shop looking like LoL's while still remaining the same size.

  3. #13
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    Organizing items by what they provide (+stats, +speed, etc) instead of their general category (weapon, upgrade, core, etc) would be fine with me.

  4. #14
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    The LoL shop is big and it appears to be slow to use, or im wrong?

    You want you shop time to be as small as possible. So just learn the new shop and it will be fast and you will find all things in it.

  5. #15
    here are my suggestions: the as it currently is, is even more dificult to navigate than the one in dota. The problem is that while in dota, there were visual cues (shopkeepers) and subdivisions of items it was easy to connect a certain set of items with a certain shopkeeper. Now that dota 2 has done away with the multishop system, those visual cues no longer exist.

    The current shop system uses 2 tiers of items "basic" and "upgrades". this is a strange distinction to make because what constitutes a basic item? what is an upgrade? there is not a clear definition for these terms, so people using the shop are left confused. The first change to the shop should be to this classification between basic and upgrades. "midgame" and "lategame" might be more helpful, but i forsee the same problems as mentioned above. I think my solution would have to be to do away with this first classification altogether. (it seems to me that this basic and upgrade distinction was only implemented because you didnt have enough room horizontally to fit all the icons, so you added these to allow you to use the graphics you had already programmed and designed)

    Now let us look at the subcategories of "basic" and "upgrades". The important thing here is that there is nothing to visually distinguish each group. the graphics for each tab are a staff with some kind of magic effect on it. not intuitive at all, and the grouping of items seems more random now that the multishop system is gone. Suddenly I don't understand what is an artifact and what is an upgrade. what theme unifies each category and is that theme apparent from our labeling is what you should be trying to answer when designing the shop.

    Perhaps the old grouping of items that was appropriate for dota 1 is no longer a useful system. Remember that dota one was a design in progress and often had items added. There is no way icefrog would have wanted to rearrange the shops and move the items into a more logical grouping because then the people who had been playing for a long time would be frustrated and unable to find things. This new incarnation of dota gives you a chance to fix that. What had been designed by convienience in WC3 you can now design with purpose. There can be a guiding principle behind the shop, a logic that will allow further additions to be made in a logical way. A structure.

    I suggest doing away with the basic and upgrades tabs, and the old shop organization. Items should be arranged by what they do. You will need a sufficient number of categories and a sufficient number of items per category. So i suggest the following as some potential categories: health, Armor, orb effects, stat upgrades (potentially could be broken down into 3 subcategories), castable items, movement speed, consumable items, health regeneration, and mana regeneration.

    these categories would have to be at the top of the list where currently your tabs (composed of teh same staff with a few different pixels added to distinguish it) are. I would suggest just writing out the name of each category, but if you can design some icons that are intuitive enough that the meaning of the category is clear from looking at them then from an art perspective I would say the icons are preferable. (remember ease of use takes precedence over art)

    I want to be clear that i think the item portraits look great and i think the shop itself looks great as well. You have done an excelent job making a platform for a truely excelent shop. I just think that it needs to be organized so that people can easily find items. Remember, in dota 1 they had visual cues for each shop and in the new better shop they do not, so you need to really step up your labeling and organizing game.

    I am also very impressed by your suggested items. they seem like a fairly reliable AND EASY TO ACCESS guide avoiding things like an moggidans and vlads on rikimaru (although my friend apparently decided that was a good idea yesterday). I like how you have a system that prototypes builds as they approach mid and late games.

    Thank you (i guess thank you dota invite algorythm) for selecting me to participate in the beta, I hope that you find this feedback helpful. I also hope im putting it in the right place, this if my first post on this forum. If I'm not Im sorry and ill try to place it more appropriately next time.
    BronzeLeague


    edit: I also forgot to mention how much I love the way shopping now works when you are not in base. The solution of being able to pull up a full, unobtrusive shop while laning and still be able to control your hero is so elegant and helpful. It really is a great way to work dynamic shopping.
    Last edited by thebronzeleague; 12-04-2011 at 10:59 AM.

  6. #16
    Basic Member Baloroth's Avatar
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    this is a strange distinction to make because what constitutes a basic item? what is an upgrade?
    Really? You don't realize what the difference between those two things is? I... I'm sorry, I find it painful to read the rest of the post after that. (hint: basic items are single items, upgrades are combinations.)

    With that said, the system seems worse than it is. I mean that it is essentially identical to DotA's, the problem is that, both, we aren't used to the new system (DotA's isn't very good, but once you know where everything is it works fine), and that it uses a different method of finding items. It took years for me to completely get the whole system of DotA's shops (which then promptly change... argh). More visual cues are needed, I agree, but I think the devision as it is makes a fair amount of sense. The categories just need to be indicated more thoroughly. More importantly, the new shop shifts to a name-based identification system, rather than an icon based one. It is pretty fast, once you know the items, to scan a shop in dota and know if it has the item you need. This is much harder in Dota 2.

    In addition, part of what makes it more confusing is the list arrangement rather than the grid. The grid was technically harder to find an item, but once you knew the icon you could find it much faster, making shopping easier. For basic stat upgrades, for example, all the strength was in one column, int in another, etc. Now, you have to scan through one set to find the other. Humans can easily think in two dimensions, so it makes little to reduce the shop to lists. The main problem I think is that the shop is just too small, although it feels large. You really need a large shop, with a multi-column list, so you can identify icons easier, since visuals cues are easier and faster to determine than written ones. You could also make more subdivisions (eg LoL's shop, although that system wouldn't work as well in DotA due to the different ways items are designed. Items in DotA often don't have a single, readily identifiable category that they fit under, unless you put the same item under multiple categories: possible, but not very elegant), since the previous shop limitations no longer exist. Possibly, a "legacy" and "new" system, so that veterans who know what category an item is under can look there, while new players get different categorizations based on a more thorough system.

    tl;dr: have nice big icons and use a grid rather than a list.

  7. #17
    Basic Member poochop's Avatar
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    i just use the search function....

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by poochop View Post
    i just use the search function....
    /thread

    No srsly, I think this is a problem coming along with many games. There is no way to design a shop that everyone can find everything in less than a second.
    Just get used to the shop and you start to remember where the items are.

    The only thing I can imagine would be a very very small shop interface, consisting of a search bar, which gets auto-focus.
    Explanation:

    You click on a shortcut, a search bar opens and you can directly start typing in the item's name. (Without clicking on it first, like in the current shop)
    The item appears and you can buy it.
    Keep in mind that this SHOULD NOT replace the existing shop. This should be implemented as an ADDITION, so that buying items on a lane is more easier when you don't know where the items are in the actual shop.

    Regards

  9. #19
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    Please make the consumables tab always visible for purchase.

  10. #20
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    well, IMO hon shop is better than LOL shop

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