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Thread: Explored vs Unexplored areas

  1. #41
    Basic Member Baloroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblue View Post
    if blinking into trees is overpowered, that could be disabled directly

    the "unexplored" mechanic doesn't really make sense
    Lemme explain it. Pick Furion, get TP at, oh, let's say level two, go bottom radiant lane. Top has a battle, one dire hero gets low and runs back to base (or just to hang back and tango up). If you, or a teammate, haven't explored, then you can't TP top and ambush him. The result is that the mechanic rewards teamplay (and/or investing the time to explore yourself). Later in the game, this simply isn't an issue at all, since you will have explored nearly the entire map. But early on, it rewards skill and foresight. And no one should be confused why they can't do it after the first time. I agree it can be annoying, but it really does have a purpose.

    The above is only one example: the same, but less so, holds for blinking heroes. Early on, it makes it harder to chase, unless you have already explored (you can't blink ahead). So, again, you need to use forethought to use the hero properly, rather than just play it mindlessly.

    The trees issue actually isn't one, since a flying courier allows you to do that anyways. But, again, only with forethought.

  2. #42
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    since u could easily kill enemy courier with furion at lvl 1 and tp,
    i think the "unexplored" mechanic should stay

  3. #43
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    First of all Dota 2 not copying hon???? Lets see...
    Shop almost identical to hon's 1
    U cant lose your hero anymore by clicking another unit...(this wasnt a mechanic in dota? didnt it need more skill to play with this annoying thing? why change it?) 2
    reconnect feature 3
    customized keys ingame ( dont tell me about dota toolkit.... just dont.... ) 4
    Voice in game 5
    MATCHMAKING SYSTEM 6

    and i am sure if i keep thinking of smthing i will keep finding more....

    Second We will not stop thinking of Hon in dota 2 we (the hon players) cause hon was based on dota and was just an improved version... So when i am playing dota 2 (which i like really much) I want the features that Hon has provided that make me have a better time when playing...( btw no matter what mechanics etc i still prefer HON for many reasons... better visual effects, more clear effects like spells etc etc and the most basic really really really super duper uber sound effects... I mean the sound environment in hon just makes u feel that u are actually in the map with the heroes... Just epic sound design, in dota 2? they didnt even change the kill anouncer voices.... Just copy pasted them) Stop with this bllshit about mechanics and it was meant to be etc.... So u say that in an area unexplored i dont know what it is there so i cant blink... In the same way i dont know what is there in an area that is explored but covered with fog of war.... Why then be able to blink this time? ha? got my point?

    and finally about the bold part in the quote... JUST LULZ... u clearly havent played hon or if so u have played for smthin like 2 weeks or so.... go watch a top hon tournament on honcast then watch a dota 2 international tournament game and then come tell me which one u liked more.... Chears
    Ok so you are trying to tell me that being able to reconnect to an online game, matchmaking, customizing key bindings, and voice in-game capabilities are all credit to HoN? No other game before it has implemented these things before? Every online game in the past 2 decades practically had most or all of these features. They are in everyone of Valve's games so obviously they will be in Dota 2. It's not copying HoN its doing simply what every game does nowadays.

    HoN was basically a remake of dota with improved graphics and game play efficiencies that could not be made with the WC3 mod. Essentially HoN is dota 1, and Dota 2 is improving on Dota 1 not HoN. Also keep in mind S2 made HoN and Valve is making Dota 2 with IceFrog. The goal of Dota 2 is not to improve on HoN, HoN is comparable to the Ocarina of Time on the 3DS. It is simply a remake with prettier graphics and an improved engine with game play mechanics. Now I know you will try to tell me "wait Dota 2 is just that as well", but Dota 2 is doing so much more. They are shaping a better community making this game more newb friendly and accessible, without being driven out by the horrible community dota has created for itself. Where if you don't know how to play you should basically commit suicide because life is not worth living being when your bad at dota.

    As for your point on unexplored areas it makes no intuitive sense. If you have never been behind a wall of trees, you have no idea what is there. It could be a cliff, flat land, or more trees. If you have been to the other side and seen what is there, then you now know what the land looks like beyond those trees. Now if you go back on the other side, sure you can't see the other side of the trees, you still know what the landscape is like behind the trees. So even if there is fog of war and you've explored the area you can't currently "see" you still know whats there. Now compare that to not "seeing" and not knowing (i.e never been to the other side of the trees), big difference. So no I don't get your point at all.

    Therefore it is not "bullshit" as you said, but true game mechanics. You can't chase a low health enemy forward with blinking or tp'ing heroes to get an easy kills early game, it is a balance mechanic so that these heroes don't become totally dominant early game.

    Also why change the kill announcer voice? What is wrong with it? As far as I'm concerned it works, so why change it? That would be like saying "why are they using the same exact heroes with the exact same spells and abilities, just copy pasted them". Dota 2 is meant to stay true to dota 1 while improving on it by supplying it with its own engine to run on instead of mod limitations.

    It is at this point that I would like to point out that you claim "if [you have played HoN] you played for smthin like 2 weeks or so" (I stayed true to your spelling), but I see your only a member since November, so you clearly haven't played Dota 2 for much more then two weeks yourself. I Just find that interesting that you use that as a point, when you yourself have opinions on Dota 2 without actually having played it much at all.

    Moving on, HoN is a fast paced game, it is meant to be quicker. Meanwhile Dota when not on EM is meant to be long and last close to an hour when teams are evenly matched. So yes if you like fast paced quick conclusions you will perhaps prefer HoN. But that is what EM is for in dota if you want a game closer to 30 minutes. And game modes will be implemented in time, at the moment there just aren't enough people online to make that a feasible option without ridiculously long queue times.

    Moreover I can tell you I have watched HoN and Dota 2 tournaments, so I can tell you that I prefer Dota 2 tournaments. They are funner to watch and I enjoy the skill level of the players. You only need watch the game between Monkey Business and Na'vi in the ESWC semi final to realize how amazing Dota 2 really is, even though its only in the beta stage. Really if you haven't seen it I recommend everyone watch it, truly a stupendous match. I don't know if it's against forum rules to post links to other websites so you will have to search it yourself on youtube. To english viewers I recommend you search exactly this : Dota 2 - ESWC Semi Final - Na'Vi vs Monkey
    And it will be the first thing at the top of the list.

    Lastly, since you didn't even put in the effort to type in proper English or are incapable of doing so, add to that the weakness of your arguments and lack of explaining yourself, I've come to the conclusion that you cant be over your mid teens.

    To sum it up, let me ask you a simple question. Has Valve ever published a game that was not outstanding? The answer is no. Valve does not produce average or above average games, they produce only the best. And I can guarantee you that Dota 2 will be immaculate upon release, add to that IceFrog who continuously tweaks the game and adds new heroes. You could not ask for a better combination really. Dota 2 is improving on dota 1 not HoN.

    To quote the late Steve Jobs, a true innovator : A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.

    You may think you know what you would like to see, but sometimes Valve knows what you need better then you do.
    Last edited by nicoman; 12-05-2011 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Add quote

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloroth View Post
    Lemme explain it. Pick Furion, get TP at, oh, let's say level two, go bottom radiant lane. Top has a battle, one dire hero gets low and runs back to base (or just to hang back and tango up). If you, or a teammate, haven't explored, then you can't TP top and ambush him. The result is that the mechanic rewards teamplay (and/or investing the time to explore yourself). Later in the game, this simply isn't an issue at all, since you will have explored nearly the entire map. But early on, it rewards skill and foresight. And no one should be confused why they can't do it after the first time. I agree it can be annoying, but it really does have a purpose.

    The above is only one example: the same, but less so, holds for blinking heroes. Early on, it makes it harder to chase, unless you have already explored (you can't blink ahead). So, again, you need to use forethought to use the hero properly, rather than just play it mindlessly.

    The trees issue actually isn't one, since a flying courier allows you to do that anyways. But, again, only with forethought.
    Yeah, one hero should be enough to warrant an extremely annoying & useless concept. /s

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloroth View Post
    Lemme explain it. Pick Furion, get TP at, oh, let's say level two, go bottom radiant lane. Top has a battle, one dire hero gets low and runs back to base (or just to hang back and tango up). If you, or a teammate, haven't explored, then you can't TP top and ambush him. The result is that the mechanic rewards teamplay (and/or investing the time to explore yourself). Later in the game, this simply isn't an issue at all, since you will have explored nearly the entire map. But early on, it rewards skill and foresight. And no one should be confused why they can't do it after the first time. I agree it can be annoying, but it really does have a purpose.

    The above is only one example: the same, but less so, holds for blinking heroes. Early on, it makes it harder to chase, unless you have already explored (you can't blink ahead). So, again, you need to use forethought to use the hero properly, rather than just play it mindlessly.

    The trees issue actually isn't one, since a flying courier allows you to do that anyways. But, again, only with forethought.
    You fail to see the fact that this mechanic adds nearly 0 depth to the game to focus around 3 heroes with 1 skill and 1 item yet doesn't affect psuedo blinks in anyway. Not only is it counter-intuitive to the modern engine, it is utterly confusing. There are ways to add interesting mechanics and features to the game which make actual gameplay sense.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDA101 View Post
    You fail to see the fact that this mechanic adds nearly 0 depth to the game to focus around 3 heroes with 1 skill and 1 item yet doesn't affect psuedo blinks in anyway. Not only is it counter-intuitive to the modern engine, it is utterly confusing. There are ways to add interesting mechanics and features to the game which make actual gameplay sense.
    I think I will leave it up to Valve to decide what makes sense in terms of balance and gameplay, and not the people who complain about the unexplored areas offering no relevant reasons as to why it should be implemented differently.

    Saying it is confusing does not explain why, adding that it adds 0 depth to the game is also false since it prevents blinkers and tp'ers a significantly greater advantage early game. You cannot simply state things and then just assume people will understand it, you have to elaborate on your points

  7. #47
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    Ok, Starcraft and Warcraft have this mechanic because your location and your enemies location is unknown at the beginning of the game. Thus you are required to constantly scout for expansions, structures and units. Scouting is the reason for this mechanic and it is a large and INTEGRAL part of the game.

    There is 0 scouting done in the game. You are essentially borrowing a mechanic which wasn't designed for your type of game. You do not have bases, map control is done through wards and not scouting.

    DotA borrows entirely from the Wc3 engine which is fine. Last hitting is a mechanic which focuses on your ability to time your attack in order to gain gold against a large number of variables.

    Last hitting is a mechanic applied to all heroes of the game.

    Scouting for vision so you can blink focuses that you've scouting a certain area with your flying courier ONCE.

    This vision mechanic applies to 3 heroes, only.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDA101 View Post
    Ok, Starcraft and Warcraft have this mechanic because your location and your enemies location is unknown at the beginning of the game. Thus you are required to constantly scout for expansions, structures and units. Scouting is the reason for this mechanic and it is a large and INTEGRAL part of the game.

    There is 0 scouting done in the game. You are essentially borrowing a mechanic which wasn't designed for your type of game. You do not have bases, map control is done through wards and not scouting.

    DotA borrows entirely from the Wc3 engine which is fine. Last hitting is a mechanic which focuses on your ability to time your attack in order to gain gold against a large number of variables.

    Last hitting is a mechanic applied to all heroes of the game.

    Scouting for vision so you can blink focuses that you've scouting a certain area with your flying courier ONCE.

    This vision mechanic applies to 3 heroes, only.
    I like your point that the mechanic applies to three heroes only, but you still need that to prevent those 3 heroes from becoming overpowered characters early game when chasing down low hp heroes. Same goes for basher not working on Slardar, Troll and Void for example, thats only three heroes that cannot use the item but it is a balance mechanic.

    I guess the question to ask is why do you want so badly to be able to blink/tp to unexplored areas? Is it because you want the unfair advantage early game allowing total dominance, especially with furion? If that's the reason then you just want a broken game mechanic that you can take advantage of, and is a pointless argument.

    Not being able to blink or TP to the unexplored areas of the map serves the sole purpose of making chasing not rediculously easy for those 3 characters, just like how 3 heroes can't use cranium basher for virtually a perma bash.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    I guess the question to ask is why do you want so badly to be able to blink/tp to unexplored areas? Is it because you want the unfair advantage early game allowing total dominance, especially with furion?
    This is uncalled for, to question someone's intent in a discussion. Just discuss the issue please.

    For me, I don't play many blink heroes but I definitely want the exploration mechanic removed because it's so unintuitive that I'm guaranteed to end up dying because a blink that I thought would work fails.

    To your earlier point, it would be much more effecient to nerf the existing blinks and blink heroes in the game if the exploration mechanic was truly keeping them down. But I suspect the only hero it has an effect on is Furion, so he might need a tweak or two. Tweaking him is much better than frustrating every new player who has no reason to know the exploration mechanic exists in the first place.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDA101 View Post
    You fail to see the fact that this mechanic adds nearly 0 depth to the game to focus around 3 heroes with 1 skill and 1 item yet doesn't affect psuedo blinks in anyway. Not only is it counter-intuitive to the modern engine, it is utterly confusing. There are ways to add interesting mechanics and features to the game which make actual gameplay sense.
    I don't understand why you're bringing the engine into this. It has nothing to do it, this feature could even be removed on Warcraft III if desired.

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