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Thread: Explored vs Unexplored areas

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    Ok so you are trying to tell me that being able to reconnect to an online game, matchmaking, customizing key bindings, and voice in-game capabilities are all credit to HoN? No other game before it has implemented these things before? Every online game in the past 2 decades practically had most or all of these features. They are in everyone of Valve's games so obviously they will be in Dota 2. It's not copying HoN its doing simply what every game does nowadays.

    HoN was basically a remake of dota with improved graphics and game play efficiencies that could not be made with the WC3 mod. Essentially HoN is dota 1, and Dota 2 is improving on Dota 1 not HoN. Also keep in mind S2 made HoN and Valve is making Dota 2 with IceFrog. The goal of Dota 2 is not to improve on HoN, HoN is comparable to the Ocarina of Time on the 3DS. It is simply a remake with prettier graphics and an improved engine with game play mechanics. Now I know you will try to tell me "wait Dota 2 is just that as well", but Dota 2 is doing so much more. They are shaping a better community making this game more newb friendly and accessible, without being driven out by the horrible community dota has created for itself. Where if you don't know how to play you should basically commit suicide because life is not worth living being when your bad at dota.

    As for your point on unexplored areas it makes no intuitive sense. If you have never been behind a wall of trees, you have no idea what is there. It could be a cliff, flat land, or more trees. If you have been to the other side and seen what is there, then you now know what the land looks like beyond those trees. Now if you go back on the other side, sure you can't see the other side of the trees, you still know what the landscape is like behind the trees. So even if there is fog of war and you've explored the area you can't currently "see" you still know whats there. Now compare that to not "seeing" and not knowing (i.e never been to the other side of the trees), big difference. So no I don't get your point at all.

    Therefore it is not "bullshit" as you said, but true game mechanics. You can't chase a low health enemy forward with blinking or tp'ing heroes to get an easy kills early game, it is a balance mechanic so that these heroes don't become totally dominant early game.

    Also why change the kill announcer voice? What is wrong with it? As far as I'm concerned it works, so why change it? That would be like saying "why are they using the same exact heroes with the exact same spells and abilities, just copy pasted them". Dota 2 is meant to stay true to dota 1 while improving on it by supplying it with its own engine to run on instead of mod limitations.

    It is at this point that I would like to point out that you claim "if [you have played HoN] you played for smthin like 2 weeks or so" (I stayed true to your spelling), but I see your only a member since November, so you clearly haven't played Dota 2 for much more then two weeks yourself. I Just find that interesting that you use that as a point, when you yourself have opinions on Dota 2 without actually having played it much at all.

    Moving on, HoN is a fast paced game, it is meant to be quicker. Meanwhile Dota when not on EM is meant to be long and last close to an hour when teams are evenly matched. So yes if you like fast paced quick conclusions you will perhaps prefer HoN. But that is what EM is for in dota if you want a game closer to 30 minutes. And game modes will be implemented in time, at the moment there just aren't enough people online to make that a feasible option without ridiculously long queue times.

    Moreover I can tell you I have watched HoN and Dota 2 tournaments, so I can tell you that I prefer Dota 2 tournaments. They are funner to watch and I enjoy the skill level of the players. You only need watch the game between Monkey Business and Na'vi in the ESWC semi final to realize how amazing Dota 2 really is, even though its only in the beta stage. Really if you haven't seen it I recommend everyone watch it, truly a stupendous match. I don't know if it's against forum rules to post links to other websites so you will have to search it yourself on youtube. To english viewers I recommend you search exactly this : Dota 2 - ESWC Semi Final - Na'Vi vs Monkey
    And it will be the first thing at the top of the list.

    Lastly, since you didn't even put in the effort to type in proper English or are incapable of doing so, add to that the weakness of your arguments and lack of explaining yourself, I've come to the conclusion that you cant be over your mid teens.

    To sum it up, let me ask you a simple question. Has Valve ever published a game that was not outstanding? The answer is no. Valve does not produce average or above average games, they produce only the best. And I can guarantee you that Dota 2 will be immaculate upon release, add to that IceFrog who continuously tweaks the game and adds new heroes. You could not ask for a better combination really. Dota 2 is improving on dota 1 not HoN.

    To quote the late Steve Jobs, a true innovator : A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.

    You may think you know what you would like to see, but sometimes Valve knows what you need better then you do.
    First i play dota 2 since november but i played dota 1 before hon so i know what i am talking about... I mean i played dota i moved to hon because of the awesome things that they evolved and because of the annoying things from dota that were removed and now i play dota 2 and i find back again the same annoying things i was trying to avoid when i moved to hon....

    Second Hon doesnt need lower skill but higher.. The thing u say that games are faster in hon is not entirely true... U can still see a game that lasts over an hour... But when i see a dota game that lasts 70 mins and the 50 of them i see heroes farming woods sorry but this is fail.... International tournament we were just watching the two teams try to farm their 2 carries... When u see a hon game tournament u know u will see action... A lot of it... Farming 40 min woods is just boring... U are just too attached to dota 1 and nostalgic about it and cant see the big picture... Hon also has faster gameplay too... not faster metagame only... It means u have to be faster on decision making in fights and on reflexes... This is what makes it need more skill than dota....

    I dont need to talk over this with u again anyway... I will still enjoy dota 2 but i will always go on hon when i wanna play a serious game ;-)

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodurr View Post
    This is uncalled for, to question someone's intent in a discussion. Just discuss the issue please.

    For me, I don't play many blink heroes but I definitely want the exploration mechanic removed because it's so unintuitive that I'm guaranteed to end up dying because a blink that I thought would work fails.

    To your earlier point, it would be much more effecient to nerf the existing blinks and blink heroes in the game if the exploration mechanic was truly keeping them down. But I suspect the only hero it has an effect on is Furion, so he might need a tweak or two. Tweaking him is much better than frustrating every new player who has no reason to know the exploration mechanic exists in the first place.
    How is asking you why you want the mechanic removed uncalled for? Its a valid question. If something is clearly bothering you so much there must be a reason for it. Why tweak Heros changing the game when leaving the unexplored mechanic intact that was in dota 1 (not a limitation of WC3, it could have been removed then as well) for balance issues is valid ? This discussion is pointless it makes intuitive sense that you cannot blink/tp to an area you have not seen before. It is like in Bethesda games (skyrim, oblivion) you cannot fast travel to areas you have not yet explored. It makes sense because you don't know what terrain is there until you have discovered it. It is implemented for balance issues and I can guarantee you all the people who like playing AM, QoP, and Furion would rather have the unexplored mechanic then having it removed and those characters nerfed.

    Its there for good reason whether you want to accept it or not and it won't change.

    Think about it this way. IceFrog had it in dota 1 and now it is in dota 2 with Valve in on the development. Are you suggesting that you know more about game development, mechanisms and balance decisions then one of the top game developers in the world? Stop complaining about an issue that will not change, and maybe focus your time on trying to improve the game rather then act as if you know whats best. I feel like Valve and Icefrog have that covered.

    Lastly, if you die because of a blink that failed then that is your fault and lack of skill. If you are playing those heroes one of your tasks in playing them well is knowing where you can and cannot blink. People always hate it when it requires skill to play effectively.
    Last edited by nicoman; 12-06-2011 at 03:37 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    First i play dota 2 since november but i played dota 1 before hon so i know what i am talking about... I mean i played dota i moved to hon because of the awesome things that they evolved and because of the annoying things from dota that were removed and now i play dota 2 and i find back again the same annoying things i was trying to avoid when i moved to hon....

    Second Hon doesnt need lower skill but higher.. The thing u say that games are faster in hon is not entirely true... U can still see a game that lasts over an hour... But when i see a dota game that lasts 70 mins and the 50 of them i see heroes farming woods sorry but this is fail.... International tournament we were just watching the two teams try to farm their 2 carries... When u see a hon game tournament u know u will see action... A lot of it... Farming 40 min woods is just boring... U are just too attached to dota 1 and nostalgic about it and cant see the big picture... Hon also has faster gameplay too... not faster metagame only... It means u have to be faster on decision making in fights and on reflexes... This is what makes it need more skill than dota....

    I dont need to talk over this with u again anyway... I will still enjoy dota 2 but i will always go on hon when i wanna play a serious game ;-)
    I love how in your post you do not address any of the points that I posted earlier basically shutting down every one of your arguments. I highly doubt you even read any of it. The only thing you even talk about is the tournaments. As for you playing Dota 1 it has no relevance, Dota 2 is a different game, ask anyone who played the two it is very different going from Dota 1 to Dota 2.

    What happened to the discussion on explored/unexplored that I covered (which is the point of this thread need I remind you)? You have no rebuttal?

    Your reply is a jumbled mess that is hard to follow with a claim that in all Dota tournaments a carry farms for 40 minutes, which is simply just not true.

    You are clearly a HoN fanboy that no matter what you will defend HoN on all accounts, even though no one is saying anything about HoN. The only thing I was saying in my original post was that Dota 2 is not trying to be HoN. I never said it was a bad game or not fun to play, my point is simply that Dota 2 is staying true to Dota 1 and improving upon it. The point was to have people to stop asking for HoN in Dota 2. Dota 2 is its own game its not going to copy HoN, because HoN is a copy of dota 1 with some differences for obvious reasons.

    Dota 2 is an improvement on Dota 1 not HoN.
    Last edited by nicoman; 12-06-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  4. #54
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    I think valve could choose to change it or leave it and it wouldn't really affect how much I enjoy the game.

  5. #55
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    Nicoman, I swear you've got www.logicalfallacies.info open in another browser window to inspire your arguments. DotA1 was not a perfect game, and changes will be made to it in DotA2. Anyone is free to criticize or suggest changes to it. Suggesting one change doesn't mean I think I'm better than Icefrog.

    The unexplored areas mechanic is unintuitive because the map starts out being completely revealed. If the map started completely blacked out, then it would make intuitive sense that I couldn't TP into the blackness. But the map starts out revealed, and explored areas look no different than unexplored areas.

    In my opinion it doesn't really affect the balance of QoP, AM, or Blink Dagger. You can still escape danger by TPing back to an explored area. It may change Furion's balance, so they would have to look into maybe increasing the mana cost and/or cooldown for his TP ability.

    The basic game rules should be as simple as possible for better gameplay, and for the sake of new players trying to learn who already have an incredible challenge ahead of them. The unexplored mechanic does so little for gameplay that there's no way it passes muster to be yet another game rule to learn.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodurr View Post
    Nicoman, I swear you've got www.logicalfallacies.info open in another browser window to inspire your arguments. DotA1 was not a perfect game, and changes will be made to it in DotA2. Anyone is free to criticize or suggest changes to it. Suggesting one change doesn't mean I think I'm better than Icefrog.

    The unexplored areas mechanic is unintuitive because the map starts out being completely revealed. If the map started completely blacked out, then it would make intuitive sense that I couldn't TP into the blackness. But the map starts out revealed, and explored areas look no different than unexplored areas.

    In my opinion it doesn't really affect the balance of QoP, AM, or Blink Dagger. You can still escape danger by TPing back to an explored area. It may change Furion's balance, so they would have to look into maybe increasing the mana cost and/or cooldown for his TP ability.

    The basic game rules should be as simple as possible for better gameplay, and for the sake of new players trying to learn who already have an incredible challenge ahead of them. The unexplored mechanic does so little for gameplay that there's no way it passes muster to be yet another game rule to learn.
    I have perfectly good reasoning behind my explanation for explored/unexplored, I never claimed Dota 1 to be perfect but the unexplored area makes intuitive sense. Your only argument is that it makes no sense (which it does read my other post explaning it in the most dumbed down detail possible) and it is annoying. Those are not reasons to remove a balance mechanic. Its always been there and its always made sense.

    Your arguments are weak as they are futile

  7. #57
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    i'd say make the map explored from the start unless there's difference in fog. just experienced it; on tough situation i misclicked blink destination to a unexplored area -.-

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    but the unexplored area makes intuitive sense.
    Actually no. Having more than a dozen similar skills being unaffected by this feature - and overall not even 1% of all skills being affected by this global feature that is visible for every player in the game tells me - and probably many other players too - that this feature is disproportional. There are a lot of more reasonable, efficient and reliable ways to limit these 3 (or 4) skills.

  9. #59
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    One purpose might be to give scouting some extra credit.

    I never wanted for the function to be removed. I just want to be able to tell the two different fogs appart, just as rarryre.
    Last edited by Niss3; 12-08-2011 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicoman View Post
    I like your point that the mechanic applies to three heroes only, but you still need that to prevent those 3 heroes from becoming overpowered characters early game when chasing down low hp heroes. Same goes for basher not working on Slardar, Troll and Void for example, thats only three heroes that cannot use the item but it is a balance mechanic.

    I guess the question to ask is why do you want so badly to be able to blink/tp to unexplored areas? Is it because you want the unfair advantage early game allowing total dominance, especially with furion? If that's the reason then you just want a broken game mechanic that you can take advantage of, and is a pointless argument.

    Not being able to blink or TP to the unexplored areas of the map serves the sole purpose of making chasing not rediculously easy for those 3 characters, just like how 3 heroes can't use cranium basher for virtually a perma bash.
    Yeah right cause that is what will judge the winner of the game... the ability to blink in trees and to tp with furion in unexplored areas.... I have news for you..... In hon Magina isn't always winning the games... Nymphora ( has the skill of furion to tp anywhere but doesnt have unexplored idiotic mechanics in it... ) again doesnt win always the game... Neither those 2 are overpowered heroes...

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