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Thread: Draw?

  1. #21
    Basic Member shideneyu's Avatar
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    I bump this interresting topic.

  2. #22
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    Draw finale its a must, because it can happen.

  3. #23
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    This again.. No it can't happen. Tere simply isn't something like "at the exact same time". There IS an order, always. One ancient died before the other.

    If you want something like draw being an option in Dota, got to playdota.com and suggest it there.
    Please, just call me buny.

  4. #24
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    Just like in Mario Kart, you may both have the same finish time down to the millisecond, but the comp chooses a winner...

  5. #25
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    ^Because one of them was first at the finish line. Only because the player gets milliseconds shown doesn't it mean that it can't calculate in much smaller intervals.
    Last edited by bu3ny; 09-04-2013 at 10:42 AM.
    Please, just call me buny.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    ^Because one of them was first at the finish line. Only because the player gets milliseconds shown doesn't it mean that it can't calculate in much smaller intervals.
    Well, technically, if it was run on a multicore machine and the events were being processed in seperate threads, things *could* happen at the exact same time. Just sayin'. =)

    It would be incredibly stupid to program a game that way though imo. (You usually use only one thread for game logic, the others for non-game logic like sound, streaming resources from disc, additional graphics processing, etc.) Also, still absurdly unlikely to happen.

    It's a pointless argument to say that having a random winner in these situations is wrong though, dota 2 doesn't allow draws, so someone's going to randomly win. It isn't any less random than if you were + or - a one millisecond, the winner in those situations is still the result of dumb luck.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    This again.. No it can't happen. Tere simply isn't something like "at the exact same time". There IS an order, always. One ancient died before the other.

    If you want something like draw being an option in Dota, got to playdota.com and suggest it there.
    Except it's bugged right now and evidence points to dire always being the victor when it happens in the same net frame. To keep parity with the fact that dota 1 does not have draw, I submit that this behavior should just come down to a random roll.

  8. #28
    Basic Member Crowfeather's Avatar
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    Draw doesn't happen. Victor is the team which killed it first.
    The reason why the sound Dire Radiant victory sounds is because there is no check to see if the enemy ancient is already dead when playing the sound. It simply triggers after the death of an ancient....


    Also there is no possibility of "multi threading" causing an issue. Simply due to the fact that it is assumed that both threads are running under the same conditions. Not to mention for even an event to be considered you would require the 2nd ancient being destroyed within microseconds of the 1st ancient. Probably even less
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 09-04-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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  9. #29
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    I thought you cannot determine which ancients were destroyed first/which events happens first. You simply cannot make the time interval as small as possible. If a game happens to check every 10 second if racer A and B passed the line yet it will work highly inaccurate. (The next moment it checks it says both racer has passed the line. The game cannot tell which racer passed the line first. Or am I wrong in this assumption?) They can make it smaller and smaller but there is still a chance that it happens in the same time interval (alternativly it registers that both have passed the line in the very next time interval)..

    There may be an order in that exact time tick which information is proccessed first but how does it determine how the order is? The game isn't running smooth. It "jumps". Just like how computer cannot display real motion but only many, many pictures in a small period.
    I can understand strict orders such as when applying buffs/debuffs. "Nyx receives Desolator buff. Shadow Fiend hits Earthshaker for 120 damage. Shadow Fiend gets stunned by Nyx (spiked armor thingy)." (Order may be wrong. Just an example.) But how is the order for processing data determined when there is no real connection between the events?

    In this particular example both ancients were destroyed. So who did really win? Normally the timestamp from: "[XX:YY.ZZ] [Hero] hits [Faction]'s Ancient for 57 damage [XX:YY.ZZ] [Hero] receives Greater Bash debuff from [Faction]'s Ancient" is the absolut last timestamp in the combat log [XX:YY.ZZ]. This doesn't tell much because not everything is logged BUT:
    Even if there are projectiles flying at your opponents Factions which could lead to destuction of ancients. These hits are not counted. (I remember when I had a very close game. I was a hit away from enemy ancient destruction. My projectile was in the air but it didn't count.)

    I agree with you that the game can calculate in much smaller time intervals but what if it isn't small enough to see which happened first. What if in the next time interval the game registered both ancients were attacked. I don't know how the game can determine which happened first. It needs to calculate in even smaller time interval (What if it is still not small enough etc...). It is now just a matter of fact which information is proccessed first (my claim: this does not equate to happened first; if not: why?)

    The game could update every tick all events in a strict order. But if two unrelated events are updated according to that list it doesn't really mean that one event happened before the other one.

    If my assumption is correct:
    The chance of having a draw is very unlikly and not worth the programming effort but I am curious about the real answer. I need to be convinced x).

    TL;DR: In order to accuratly determine which ancient was hit first the time intervals has to be really really short. There is however still a possibility that the game registers both ancients to be hit in the very next time interval. In order to determine which was hit first you have to make the time interval even shorter.

    I don't understand how it is not possible for it to happen at the exact time (I can however understand this statement if you are talking about real world, but not in the digital world). But I am not a programmer so please correct me!
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  10. #30
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    The combat log is reported in with 10ms as the smallest interval. If the game registers events on the same time scale then yes things can be "simultaneous" since that's what it says. If it's sampling at 1ms intervals or faster I think it's highly unlikely that the last hits on the ancients were registered at the same time.
    Last edited by Synaptic; 09-04-2013 at 06:41 PM.

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